[Music] Well, welcome to On the Offense. Uh,

whereas our loyal listeners know and Jeff, we have a lot of loyal listeners,

let me tell you. We've got buckets full of loyal listeners.

Our loyal Yes, they're both loyal and loyal. Yeah, exactly. They all know that

what we tend to do here is focus on a topic that is somehow newsworthy and

relates in some way to marketing and communications and that's exactly we're what we're going to do today. So in our

last podcast we offered a nod to graduation season. So, here we are in the middle of May. And so, that was a

couple of weeks ago. Graduations were just kicking in. And the question we asked a couple of weeks ago was, would

you still choose the same major in college if you had a chance to do it all

over again? which in our case because we had both majored in journalism as

undergrads prompted a a essentially a dissection of u the state of journalism

today and all of its woundedness right but having said that I I believe it's

safe to say that we both say that yeah we would do it all over again we would major in journalism all over again and

that that podcast wasn't just answering that question in a yes or no way but it

also got into why would we do it again? What are all the good things that you can uh apply to other things that you do

for a living if you major in journalism? Those types of things, right? So, we kind of look at today as as a kind of

sort of part two of that discussion. Uh, graduations are still going on all

around us. Um, Barbara, who I'll introduce in a moment, I believe. Barbara, today is USC's graduation. So,

Jeff, what do we say? What do we say, Jeff? Oh, I don't know, John. On, baby. Um,

I'd say we are Penn State, just so you know. That is what you say. That's true. So, kind of part two, um, is we're going

to focus more on talent. Uh, namely, what are companies looking for in talent

today? Um, and and and that's true if you're, you know, what are they looking for in young talent, people coming off

of campus, that type of thing. But it really doesn't matter how how old you are or experienced you are. Um what are

companies looking for in talent in general? What can people coming out of school do to up their chances of finding

a job? We're also interested in a couple of related topics. For example, what are companies doing to market themselves to

potential employees, right? How do you as a as a human resources function or a

company ensure that you know the best and brightest are coming to you, right? And then once you get them in the door,

what are you doing to keep them? What are you doing to engage them? Make sure they don't quit, which opens up a whole

can of worms uh time and money um to replace them. So, um what are companies

doing in that regard? Recruitment, marketing, and employee engagement are two of the services that Jeff's and my

firm offers. And that's why we thought it would be interesting to talk about this today relative to what we do. But

we also think it's just a really important topic in general, but especially right now with graduation

season going on. So all of that is what is what has led us to this part two for

the month of May. And I am thrilled to say that we are breaking new ground in

this podcast thanks to our first ever panel discussion. Uh and I'm even more

thrilled to be able to introduce the two people who have kindly agreed uh to make up this panel. Barbara Schmidt Serby

with whom I had a ball in business school and who is now VP of talent. I

hope I got that right. Correct me if I'm wrong. Barbara at KB Home in Los

Angeles. Uh and Daryl Hoffman with whom I worked for many years here in Dallas with Unicus. We also had a ball in our

own way. Daryl. Yes. And who was still VP of HR for Unicus, still based here in

Dallas. So Barbara, why don't you start by telling our viewers a little bit about yourself, then we'll do the same

with Daryl, and then we'll jump into our discussion. So with that, I'll turn it over to you. Great. As John mentioned, I

am currently the VP of talent at Katie Home. They are a single family home builder who builds all over the United

States. I've been there not very long, about a year and a half, and I oversee both recruiting, but also talent

development and leadership development. But prior to joining KB home, I spent about 18 years at Warner Brothers

Studios. I was toiled for about 10 years in compensation, working my way up to VP

of compensation, and then a very smart head of HR hip checked me over into

recruiting, which I fell in love with. and I led the Warner Brothers recruiting team for about five years. did another

little stint um in another role and then came back to recruiting or talent acquisition when we were acquired by

AT&T and we became Warner Media and I had very busy years leading that global

team of that grew to about 300 people um where we were recruiting for not only

Warner Brothers but HBO, HBO Max, Turner, CNN and a number of global

positions during the pandemic. So, it was a great um experience really trying

to be competitive in a very competitive labor market if you all recall and I left there just a couple years ago and

we they were acquired again by Discovery and they became Warner Brothers Discoveries. So, I have a very long

career in both HR and in recruiting and I'm happy to be on this panel today to

share some thoughts. Happy to have you here Barbara. You see, Jeff, this is what happens when you go to business

school at the University of Southern California. You have you have careers like that. You see, you keep fighting.

John, your school outshines mine. Yeah, I didn't say that. Outshine mine. I did

not say that. Mr. Hoffman, over to you. Oh, thanks, John. And uh thanks for the

invite. So, contrary to Barbara, my history's a little, you know, slightly differently in that I didn't stem from

HR. When I joined the business world, it was straight out of college, straight out of university in South Africa. And

my first job was with IBM. So always been in the technology sector. Spent a bit of time with IBM. And IBM

essentially was my trip over to the UK where I spent a year and a little bit

with IBM before I moved to Hila Packard. So I've been with IBM and HP. And my roles in both of those were really very

much business focused, right? And with HP, I uh took up roles that involved uh

supporting teams across Europe, uh building delivery centers and building centers in India. Um as well as having a

population all across the world that sort of made up my team in delivering services to clients. However, after

serving the client for a number of years, I found there was a gap in HR in terms of fiddling requisitions and

finding talent and bringing talent into the organization that would then go on to service my customer. So, in

discussing with uh the then HR leader um at HP, I decided to move away from the business and move into HR and set up a

workforce planning and talent management function for Hulip Packard worldwide. And on the enterprise side um which is

where I was based we looked at introducing ways in which we could look at talent to look at fulfilling the

demand from the business of people and essentially building up a workforce planning function that was interlocked

with the business with resource management in the business and filling talent out in that way. HP then brought

me across the US to where I am today, John, and where I met you in Dallas uh and spent a little bit of time with HP

and was very fortunate in being responsible for running the HR uh leg I

guess of the merger between CSC and Hillet Packard Enterprise that then became DXC. Um so I learned in 18 months

about HR and talent and about managing talent uh more than I'd probably learned in the prior 10 years. uh so very proud

to have been part of that initiative. We're after um a very uh close colleague of mine came across to Unicus um who

then became the CHRO at Unicus and asked me to come across and help Unicus build the HR function as well. Um and that's

where we are today. Uh John essentially um the only change in in not going too far down this line is that we've adopted

a slightly different approach uh to how we structured HR and my HR uh arm now is

essentially under technology. So I'm now responsible for the HR technology stack um which involves uh essentially you

know some of the core products like workday but also then looking at what we're going to be doing for the next two to three to four to five years in the

space of AI. So as I mentioned previously AI is probably going to come up in this discussion um because that is

the hot topic out of the market at the moment but happy to contribute to to the podcast. So so thanks for the invite

John. The the pleasure is ours. Thank you both for joining us. uh clearly from

Jeff from their background this is going to be a really good discussion. So um thank you. So let let's jump in. I mean

maybe start with a Barbara maybe start with you. I mean just a really maybe a very broad question to start. What what

do companies look for in talent in general? I mean maybe I maybe that's too broad. I don't know but it is very broad

I say but I when I think about recruiting you know the basic thing is

does this person meet the requirements of the job and can we afford them right those are those first screening

qualification questions that recruiters or whoever's doing the intake will will

consider right um and then also like do they want to work here right sometimes

we're not looking at applications we're reaching out to folks headunting and like are they even interested in working

here. Do they have do they know this company? Do they know our product or service? I think in some companies it's

wonderful when a hiring manager has given some thought to I have a vacancy.

How can I use this vacancy? You know, do I just replace the person who left or is

there a way to enhance the skills of my team? Where are the gaps on my team? Is it a skill? Is it a um a philosophy?

maybe they come from a different country or a different point of view that might help us build a better product or market

our product better to our consumers. So, anytime you have a hiring manager who's thought about the search strategy,

that's a little inside baseball terminology in recruiting, but has given some thought to like how can I best use

this vacancy to enhance the skills or the value of my team to the organization. That's a huge bonus,

right? because then you can really sort of drill down in what you're looking for. Um, but I think every company

probably approaches things differently. There's some small companies that are just like, I need a body in this job who

can do it and there's other companies who are thinking, I need someone that can do the job today, but what can they

do in three years or in five years? What do they bring to us that we don't already have? Right? And I just think

there's a whole I'm curious what you think, Darl, but I think there's a whole range of how people approach looking for

talent. Yeah, I think Bob the the you're quite right. I think how people and how

companies look for talent vary based on the requirements, right? It sounds like an obvious thing to say, but but but it is. Um and you know, when when you go

about looking for talent, especially in today's world where there is a lot of

there are a lot of applications coming for each position, right? If if I'm sure you know in in your world bar there

there's you know for every job you get a lot of applications and you know trying to wade through those applications to

even get as a graduate down selected into even talking to a recruiter is

really difficult today. You know sure the very very specialized skills the very highly sought after skills not

every not everybody applies for but in general coming out of a business school or coming out of a university in some

business graduate program you have got a lot of competition out there. Um and it is up to the companies as to how they

define what they want to look for. So let me jump on that that that your comment Darl about coming out of

university. What about what about young people? What what specific

things are companies looking for in young people? They could be coming out of undergrad. They could be coming out

of business school. What whatever. Are there certain characteristics, things like that that

companies are looking for? Look, the basics are still there, John. You know, companies still want skill.

They still want the experience. They still want the right degree. Um, you know, they still want somebody's ability

to do the job, right? There's technical skills and soft skills. We all know about that. For years and years and years, there've been different subsets

of skills that companies will look at in the interview process. Don't underestimate soft skills. They are

still very important. We still want candidates to be able to hold their own in a conversation. We still want

candidates to be able to express an opinion about something in a conversation. Um, you know, candidates

have to show leadership, have to show initiative. Uh, candidates should never be afraid of of bragging in a way about

things that they've done in their college experience. You know, what what clubs did they manage, what initiatives did they run? Um, did they do any

community work? Did they help out, you know, colleagues? Were they mentors? you know, the smallest thing gives a

recruiter insight into what a true softskll quality is. So, you know, I I

think an interview, how to interview is a whole another podcast, John, because I think, you know, how people come across

in interviews in in you know, the old cliche that you make the biggest impression in interview in the in the

first 30 seconds is very important. Um, but how people carry themselves from a soft skills perspective and also going

into the job that they're going to be doing. I mean do I want somebody who's going to be program driving you know

coding and sitting in in in an office coding and doing a technical job do they have to be flamboyant and excitable and

you know client facing no they don't so so there is still some uh you know some

measure of judgment that the recruiter will apply based on whatever the manager needs but at the base level you've got

to be a human being you know you've you've got to demonstrate um vulnerability you've got to demonstrate

what you uh you know are good at. You know, you've got to demonstrate some sort of cultural fit and attitude. You

know, that's very important. Uh the way people are coming through university and college nowadays and and what you're

being exposed to and even, you know, there's a a seismic shift, John, in in

uh not necessarily needing a college degree. You know, there's a lot of discussion happening. You know, there's

a lot of discussion happening with experience. There's a lot of discussion happening with, you know, the college route is not the beall and end all. It's

a I'm not saying don't go and do an MBA because I think there is experience that puts you in a different discussion

category when you have been through an MBA program, when you have been through a college program. But there's some very

good recruits out there, you know, candidates out there that haven't done a college degree, you know, that have only

got a high school uh qualification. Uh but you've got to give everybody a fair chance. And I think across the board,

it's very difficult to step up and get noticed. So everything you can do from a

skills perspective on the soft sky the technical skills are easy John you know if you go into a technical interview you

either know how to code in Python or you don't it's that simple right some of those skills will have you know

different tests at the interview process but definitely uh fit and culture is becoming increasingly important um and

then you know also just what that recruiter and what the manager believes you can contribute to the team to

collaboration and are you a go-getter you know are Are you going to bring a different element to to to the team? Are

you going to be enthusiastic? Are you going to really the return on investment? You know, everybody that's done business knows what what is the

return investment that you as a candidate are going to give that manager in the company.

Yeah. Real quick question if that I could look. This is so fascinating to me. Go ahead. Well, in my career, I've

seen recruitment really evolve. I think um with technology, everything else out

there that screens clients, you know, when you're putting together a resume now, you have to ask yourself what what

do I do to beat that algorithm that's going to be the first thing that looks at my resume and is going to weed out

probably nine out of 10 or 98 out of 100. And so my question to you both

would be how big of a role do those algorithms play before they even get into your hands, these resumeés. Um

because I I know I have a feeling that it's hard. Could you give a little bit of insight to our our listeners and

viewers? Most big companies use applicant tracking systems, right? There's and

we've been using them for 20 plus years. There are ways to do keyword searches and look for someone with marketing or

market research or a speci specific programming skills. I've never worked

anywhere where we use an algorithm to weed out candidates. That said, you

know, with AI, I think that's might be more prevalent in the near future. I

think honestly more than the algorithm. I think sometimes a recruiter, you know, opens a wreck, there's a thousand

applicants and they start screening them, they get to, I don't know, 20 good candidates, they just stop because I got

I got a slate and I got 10 other jobs. I got to move on. So, in my mind, and I

may not be right, but in my experience, a lot of times it's the volume versus the algorithm that you're trying to

beat. And I think having been in the job market in the last few years, I think still more than anything,

more than crafting a resume to beat the algorithm, you've got to network and you've got to know somebody who knows

somebody, right? So you're to get your resume to the top of the pile. It sounds awful. It's like, well, who do you know?

But people who network and have a big network and hear about jobs before

they're posted tend to get uh more opportunities to be considered. So, I

didn't quite answer your question because I can't speak to the algorithm, but I think it's a multi-prong approach

to trying to to get someone to speak to you about an opportunity. I don't know, Darl. I'm curious what you think.

So you're backing into I think let's call it a year, two years or three years

before you even start the job search because I think everything that a student a university grad a

non-university university grad to your point Barbara about about networking you're building your persona and John I

know as part of what what your company does you build brands you build personas that is so important for the individual

because even though you're only graduating in two or three years you've got to start working on that first job already. It's no good just turning up at

at your class and and doing the class and rushing home and going out. You know, you've got to spend time every

week, every day doing something that will contribute to your value to an a

recruiter. And by adding more and more to your resume, by adding more and more of this experience to your resume,

Barbara, what you said, even if it's a human eye or an AI eye, uh it will

differentiate you from the pack. And the pack is big. Let's be clear, it's very big and at different levels coming in at

at the entry level there's a huge population that's that's

viriates you beyond just knowing people intern programs if your college or

university is running an intern program jump on it make yourself available in research more two years three years one

year before what you want to go and try and do you can't sit back and just rely on a resume that's two pages long having

skills that everybody else is is is having at the same time. Right. So differentiation is key, Bob. And I think

that's where you were going. You've got a network. You've got a social. I've spoken to a number of students who have

created their own web pages for their personas that have created their own LinkedIn profiles already as students.

That is so key. Go to events. If there's a network speaking event, if there's something happening, you know, locally

down the road, you've got to make yourself visible and put that on your resume. You know, I always say to people

I mentor and and I've mentored a number of people in in my career. You have to

develop an opinion about everything. Read up on stuff. When you go to an interview, when you get to that interview, when you put things onto your

resume, make sure you've got an opinion about it because that's what what what the whole um you know, the whole breadth

of your experience is is going to come to the fourth, right? You you have to be able to speak about things. And how do

you get to speak about things? You experience things. So, it's great, you know, I sit here. I went to a conference

last week. I went to a conference before that. It's important even as a student you get out there and you network or a

greatest point. Socialize, learn about what's going out in the market. Students who who don't do that extra um

peripheral effort do stand a a greater challenge of trying to be identified by

an algorithm or not. Because remember, algorithm or not, that still picks up on that. It still picks up that your resume

is slightly longer. You've got a couple of extra keywords out there, you know. um I volunteered. Great. that person's a

volunteer at um you know a nonprofit that makes them different because they might have different skills then right

they've managed a program they've done a so so you know without belaboring the point Barbara you're 100% right got a

network and you've got to differentiate yourself to get through the algorithms to get through the the the eyes on

recruiter that says wow I really like this this person's made extra effort hasn't just gone to class hasn't just

gone back and and you know then done something that doesn't contribute to to the future success. This is this is so

great. I um I don't know whether you guys know this or not, but I I am an adjunct professor at

Barbara University of North Texas here in Dallas. And students ask me all the time, you know, what what can I you

know, what's most important in getting a job? I tell them, now these are communications, advertising, branding

students. So my answer is flavored in that way. Okay. But what I tell them is

two things. One is internship and you mentioned that, right? Second thing is

become a content creator. Um, now how do you do that? You write for the school paper. Um, or you

could start your own blog, right? Gelman's sister did that. She was a

communications major at Elon and she started her own blog and believe me she

used that in her interviews and it was part of her resume and all that kind of

stuff right and it because if you are a communications person they can see that you've to your point Darl gone beyond um

created something they can also see your writing style your commitment commitment

to quality how consistently you're producing new content as opposed to just

slapping one thing up there and leaving it, right? That kind of stuff. Just fascinating. Oh, by the way, I haven't

heard any mention of GPA. Does that matter? My opinion, Barbara, I I don't

think it does, John. Um I personally I don't think it does. And it doesn't even come up on a resume. It doesn't come up

on a I can't remember that a recruiter's ever asked for that. So So no, I've had

some executives ask for specific jobs, but it is not a predominant thing. I

mean I mean people you know they want to know that you graduated college and you know maybe with honors you know all of

those things go into the total picture of who you are but it's not the first

thing ever that I've ever had somebody ask me only present me 4.2 GPA

candidates which is was good for me. Yeah. The only thing that I will say is

that there is um certainly in some of the more specialized career groups that that is still applicable, right? I do

know in some of the medical programs for example still applicable. So again I know this is marketing communications

but I agree with you in this space in the business space to Barbara's point it's about the whole picture but we

level set there are other careers out there that still require that. Yeah. Well let let's switch gears. Let maybe

let's look at it from the other side. What do if you're if you're looking for

a job and again whether you're coming right out of school or not doesn't

matter. Um what are people looking for in the companies themselves these days?

Is it is it commitment to the local community? You assume this is a company or an industry that somebody is

naturally interested in, but like what other things help bring to you? Yeah, it's

very different than it was, right? I think you know decades ago, I think I

don't know which generation it was, but people would take a job and work there for life, right? You went to work for, I

don't know, Kodak or even IBM. And, you know, you're like, "Oh, I'm going to stay here for whatever 40 years and

retire and that's going to be my career." And you know somewhere around I think the 1990s that sort of changed and

the concept of sort of changing jobs midcareer became more um prevalent and

that was sort of because companies weren't making the commitment to people for 40 years right so you had to be able

to adapt and change jobs but you know now I think and I don't want to totally generalize about generations but there

you know folks coming out of college now or have come out in the last few years have a very different approach to

selecting the companies that they want to work for. It's not just pay and benefits. It's not just a good job where

I can learn something and then maybe get promoted in a couple years. It is to your point, John, you know, are they

active in the community? Do they care about the environment? Can I have work

life balance? Can I work from home? Right? Can I can I go to my kids sporting events? Right? It's not just

paying my rent or my mortgage and putting food on the table. I think I think there's a number of folks in the

workplace now that have other priorities than those we were, you know, maybe more

accustomed to. So, I can't answer your question directly because I think every job seeker has a different list of

priorities that they're sort of comparing to versus the offerings. The one thing I will say is five years ago

they could be very selective, right? Because everybody was couldn't find enough people to hire and you could be

selective and really sort of cut your own deal. Now in a lot of functions, the

job market has tightened and you can't be as picky, right? You're sort of like, I'm going to take this job. You know, it

meets 70% of what I'm looking for. I'm gonna call that a win. The thing that a good recruiter does is figures out what

the candidate wants out of the job and then persuades them that the job we have

to offer meets most of their criteria. It's there's a bit of a close, right?

Like a sale. Like you want them to take your job and not the job across the street. So what are the things they

want? And if you can say, "Oh, here's the laundry list you gave me and here

are all the things we can offer you." That's what a good recruiter does to close a candidate and get them to select

the job we're offering versus the job across the street. So, both sides are trying to close the deal. Oh, yeah.

Absolutely. Oh, yeah. I mean, 100% agree. You know, I think um from a you

John Jeff, what you guys do from a marketing perspective is hugely important for a company outwards, right?

the marketing department and the communications department in a company has to get out on on media and on on uh

you know sort of social networking and showing the fun pieces of of the company. you know, we had this day and

we had a, you know, we had this and our team went out to volunteer here and and we offered as well as uh, you know, from

a recruitment perspective where where B was going is, you know, what are you offering you in the same way we want a

return on investment from you, what are we as a company providing you in that space. So it is all the elements of of

you know sure uh you know work from home and benefits and and but how flexible are you on your benefits because people

earlier in their careers or early in their lives don't need as many benefits as as somebody who is is you know

slightly further along in the career. So again marketing that to get people to apply is very important. You know what

what am I walking into because you never know it might be a great company and you end up with a terrible manager or leader. You know it just you you can't

dictate any of that. So, the best you can do on on the brand awareness side, on the company awareness side, is put

everything that they're going to see when they get into the company and get them to apply. So, a little bit of a twist on what you're saying, Barbara,

but fundamentally the same. You know, everybody's going to make their own decision based on what's important to them. I've heard that um you know,

sometimes you're judged by how long you stay at jobs. First question is, first

of all, what is that magic number? Is it two years? I've heard that thrown around quite a bit. And then the other part of

it is how important is it when you've got a gap in your job history, you know,

maybe of a year, maybe of two years. What can you say to get around that? I I know that recruiters like to zero in,

you know, why why is that gap there? Can you guys take that and just give us a little insight on what you guys look at

and whether you think there's a demarcation line or whatever with regard to job history?

Should I go first, Barbara, on this one? So, um, and you you may I'm intrigued in in return to see what Barbara, what your

opinion is on this, but in essence, Jeff, it really depends on, uh, I would

say how you interview, right? And why I say that is because I,

as an, you know, somebody who would interview, let's say I was interviewing you, Jeff, and you said, "Wow, you know,

you took two years off." I'm not going to push you to share why that is. But as somebody who's had two years off, I'd

like to describe what I've been doing in those two years because I don't think there's a wrong answer. You know, if you

decided you want to take a break from your career or you wanted to go and do something different for a while or try something, I don't think that's a

problem. And I think most most recruiters and most companies, I don't think it still, you know, has a stigma

attached that it used to before. Um I don't think stay in a company for two years or three years or leaving after 18

months uh has the stigma that it has before. Uh you know again just because something left in 18 months you don't

know that individual circumstances and if the the candidate would like to share that that's great but I would prefer and

and you know we always recruiters that I' I've helped in the past is you know you've got to look at the whole picture

in terms of what does that person bring to the table. Um it does make it more difficult in in other countries I I

think because certainly you're rotating people who who are not as uh qualified or come through the door you know don't

end up being what they promised to be different story but let's focus on the US and C right US and Canada that's where we are right now so so my opinion

Jeff is is simply I I think it helps the process if you are able to explain um

but you know look we're in modern times there's nothing wrong from a health and well-being perspective if you're taking

some time off, right? Um, corporate world is is is is stressful. Corporate

world has its ups and downs and um, you know, whereas 15 years ago, you know, if

you took some time off or you took a sbatical or you did something different, it was like, well, you can't handle it.

You know, this is a tough environment. If you need time off, you're not suited to this. I think that entire mentality

has changed. I I think there's a lot more flexibility and understanding now. I think everybody's lived that life. um

you know when people sit down when they interview and they go well you know if I can feel that I mean I've had a rough

spell here and I' I maybe I should have taken some time off so I don't think there's a magic number um you if you go

if you leave in six months well I hope you've got a good reason for that you then I would like to share that you know what happened did you relocate or was it

just a you know not what you expected there's nothing wrong with being honest in an interview but I don't know that it

it has as greater impact anymore compared to what it did a number of years ago Okay, makes sense. Yeah, I

would agree. I think it's this job hopper label is less of an issue now.

And I think we have to remember that in the last, you know, up until a few years ago, people were moving jobs every 18

months to two and a half years because they would get a phone call. Not they weren't even looking. Hey, come to work

at Netflix, come to Amazon, come to Apple, and here's another $20,000 like

great, you know. And so that it was very common. I think hiring managers still I

think a lot of times look at a resume and have that reaction too like wow they've never worked anywhere longer than 18 months you know build into your

thought process I may only have this person for 18 months but is that okay

right because I think hiring now with the expectation that people are going to stay five or 10 years might be where

we're off the mark because that may not be realistic anymore. Um, it's slowing

down a little again because of sort of the job market, I think. And I think those folks that change jobs every 18

months now own houses and they might have kids in school and they might have other things that they want a little

more stability than they did earlier in their career. So, I don't think it's a one-sizefits-all. I think I think to

Daryl's point, it's like try and understand their their career, why they moved, what they were looking for. Can

you provide that in a way that they might stick around longer than, you know, 18 months? And also factor it into

your strategy. Is that something that would work for my team? You know, do I just have this project that I need to

deliver in 18 months? And if they move on after that, I'll be okay, right? I just need that need that brain for 18

months, right? So, I think you just have to look at it through a different lens um and ask the right questions and and

whoever's making the hiring decision has to be comfortable with the answers. Sure. And well, I'll add one thing to

that just to just to underline what Barbara is saying and and we're in agreement there. If you look at the the

data, data drives everything, right? And the data now on on lifespan of a new

incoming employee is down right at the two-year mark, right? So, so the zero to

two years attrition is still growing. It's growing, you know, year after year.

Now companies that I I almost want to say it's sort of a you know seessaw in a way and that companies that have good

environments good packages people don't want to leave right doesn't mean that your average attrition is not going to

go up and but generally what you'll see in the data is that the companies that

have the the the lowest attrition rates are generally ones that have a really good cultural environment that people

enjoy working in you know and it ticks a lot of those boxes but you know To Barbara's point, I think thinking that

we're going to have an employee for for 10 years, that is very old school. Um, you know, you will have, but I think the

average tenure of employees are going to come down. I think the new generation of worker that is coming out has a totally

different requirement as to what they want to do. Um, and nowadays, you know, in a way, the job hopper, it costs

company money. you know, the the the cost of hiring is always the issue and is always the the the measure by which

all recruitment um is measured. But certainly, you know, I think there is a new world and I do still think you're

going to have people that will stay for 10 years and you're going to have stay people who will stay for two years. It's it's just the way, you know, the way the

market is right now. I think that's all really good insights for us. So, thank you for that. Darl,

you just mentioned culture as a a way to keep people avoid attrition, if you

will. I think I think that was the point of that one piece. Um, what about that?

What about employee engagement? I mean, you know, we all hear about it now and

most companies that I'm aware of at least measure employee engagement. At least at least most larger slash more

sophisticated companies do that at least annually. I think that at least annually

I would think. But what do you think what do you think about employee engagement? Yeah, this ties directly into internal comms and internal

communication, John, which you and I worked on often um at Unicus. And I think the number one element of employee

sort of retention is trust. And trust comes through transparency. and and a

lot of the companies that that I've helped and worked with and and you know CHRO that I've spoken to over the last

five years, the number one challenge that any HR culture fit has is making

sure employees know what's going on. Right? The minute there's a merger announced, there's panic. The minute the

word organizational change comes in, there's panic. But there may be very good reasons for things happening in in

the business. And you know employees need to know what's going on. And I think from a trust and employee

engagement perspective uh you there's always the balance John you and I discussed it many a time that was how

much is too much communication. You know all of a sudden somebody gets you know 15 emails then they ignore that. But I

think the culture side of that and developing trust through a communication that is of benefit to you can navigate

the mechanics. I get it. But retention is going to be solely based on trust that you have in the organization and

what the leadership of the organization is doing for you. So I do believe that's one of the strongest elements.

Communication is at the core and also being able to provide the strategy and the vision for the company. Not all

companies are doing well. Some companies are doing better than others. Uh you know and communicate people are adults.

They want to know same as you've got your bank balance and you've got your budget for your household and you've got things you know it's the same for a

business. So when there are you know redundancies happen risks happening or yeah it's an unsetting time but getting

the buy in from from the employee base is incredibly important. We live in a

postcoavid9 environment and I know that's had an impact on the

psyches of workers um and I'm sure it's had an impact on the people who are trying to get jobs. How has that work

from home aspect, which a lot of people really liked, um, impacted your ability

to recruit people in? Do you need to give them a three-day work week? Do you need to give them, you know, four days

at home, one day in the office? What have you seen? You know, I think people

did like it. I think people who already worked at the company like it. I think for new employees and new graduates who

are starting their career, it's a harder onboarding and acclamation process,

right? Um, and so, you know, I think just like everything else, you're going to have

different people who want different things out of a job. But to answer your question, for the people who had it and

liked it, they don't want to give it up, right? But there's so many companies

that are saying back to the office four days a week. You did it before. There's

no reason you can't do it again. You know, one of the most compelling things that happened to me during COVID was one

of my employees who has two small children said to me, "I never thought about working from home, but now that

I've been home and I can pick my kids up after school and we can have dinner as a family and then I can work later in the

evening." I didn't know what I was missing. Yeah. Now I know what I'm missing. Yeah. And I think that's what

companies are mi that's what companies are missing when they think let's just go back to the way we did it before because it worked fine. The difference

is a good number of employees experience something that they think is better.

Yeah. Right. And we're not and I think a lot of companies are not willing to

figure out a new way to do things well. Yeah. Right. And so, yeah, I think

there's a lot of job seekers who will avoid certain jobs if they are required

to commute and be in the office five days a week. I think it's I think it's predominant I don't know if it's

predominantly women. I think it's a lot of women. Um, I think it's younger workers who kind of got used to that.

Again, everybody has their own list of priorities, but I think the companies

that are more flexible will be able to expand their labor pool and look for

people more talented people. I mean, the the the narrower you make your labor pool, meaning if I'm only recruiting in

Dallas and they got to be within driving distance five days a week, that's a much smaller number of people for that job

than if I'm like, you know what, you can live anywhere or you can live anywhere in Texas and come in twice a month. So,

I think it's a strategic business imperative, right, to think about your recruiting strategy versus your your

work life culture. I don't know how many companies are think about it the way you know I just explained. So that's just my

point of view. But I do think it impacts our ability to recruit the best and the brightest when we're putting different

restrictions on the labor pool. That is so fascinating. I mean they look at people like like Gellman, our producer

here, who doesn't know anything different than work from home because

that was the the work culture that she entered into. So she doesn't even know

anything different. You know, if you're what 27, 28 or younger, that's literally all you know. So now you are taking

something away from us that was the standard, right? It's not

like they have a comparative point like you're describing. All they know is work

from home. So that's that's a big penalty, right, for people. So I don't

know. Then you see all these companies getting these big battles with their employees over this stuff and it's I

understand it the other way too but I I I go to where you are Barbara on that

Darl. The only piece I'd counter with is that I think the companies that get back into the office right are ones that can

afford to put good campuses together where they have a large collaboration of

people. because I would like nothing more than to walk into the office where I've got three or 4 thousand people

there because it's it's almost like a community and there things that happen in community. You know, I think all of us on this call started going when we

started our careers going to the office. Um, you know, and and I think I I'm all for working from home. I really am. I I

think I support the model. It's, you know, there's a lot of statistics that come out on productivity, etc., etc.,

But I think companies that make the office a much more welcoming place will succeed more at those that don't. And

you know, we're sort of in a catch 22 because a lot of companies close down offices. A lot of companies close down various sites as a result of co and now

are trying to push people back into the office and a site that's only got a vending machine. So culturally that's

just not going to work. Um so I think the converse of that applies. I agree with you. I think I think the new world

is dictating different different you know modes of work. But I think companies still can be successful at

having a back into the office culture if they're fulfilling the needs and the wants and the basic human hierarchy of

of you know being looked after. I Yeah. And you know, one other thing too is I

keep saying if you want everyone back in the office, then be intentional about what we're going to do when we're there.

Because if everybody's going to come in the office and go in their office and shut the door, put on their headphones and work independently, there's no

collaboration happening or the collaboration's happening through the screen anyway. But if you're going to bring me in the office, I don't know,

twice a month, and we're gonna have a team meeting and we're gonna have lunch and we're going to do some longer term

planning or we're going to do some team building or something where we're truly interacting with each other, then that's

time well spent, right? But if I'm just going to sit at a desk the way I do at home and I'm only going to talk to

people outside of the company like I do as a recruiter, um I don't there it's

hard to show employees the benefit of that. besides the hour and a half commute each way. Agree. You know, I

love Darl's point about um make the workplace a a compelling place to to go

to. I I know way back in ancient history when I worked in the pharmaceutical industry, I was in New Jersey and every

one of our companies did a 4-day work week in the summer and then gave people

Friday afternoons off. And I know when we came out of the building, there'd be a hot dog truck and an ice cream truck

and um our facilities, we had a dry cleaner, we had a a store that sold our

products at, you know, these really ridiculously discounted prices. We had a doctor's office where they actually did

x-rays. I mean, it was it was a really interesting place. And we had a gym. So,

I think that uh you know, if you can build in all those components, people are going to be happier. I've never worked for a so-called summer hours

company that had Friday afternoon off. I think that's an East Coast thing. Um I I've always thought that. I don't know

why that's true, but um I've I've not seen that. I have worked at companies

that that kind of randomly periodically have, you know, today's ice cream day

and you know, then they have the truck there and things like that, which is always nice when I think they think of

that. And again we could go on for hours right uh and it's very broad but you

know what what effect but but I think we have to talk about it at some level right what effect is AI having on talent

management on recruitment etc. So, uh, you'll see in a number of articles I I

personally put onto LinkedIn as well, the same sort of sentiment applies across the board right now, which is AI

will not replace in totality the human side of HR. It it just won't. You still

have to have at the point of interview, at the point of some stage a human

interface. You you it's it's without saying you need that. The AI piece in

the down select is probably from a graduate perspective, from a a candidate perspective, that remains the topic of

contention. You know, the way in which AI is going to down select when you get a thousand resumes in what are the rules

that are going into that and regulation around that John is very far behind at the moment. Right? You cannot

overregulate, you cannot regulate at the moment. Those sorts of rules have just not been put in place. So right now,

Barbara, to your point, yeah, there is an algorithm. John, you mentioned beating the algorithm. There is an AI algorithm. Um, but without, you know,

without a shadow of a doubt, you're still going to need a human piece to do the recruiting, to do the actual interviewing, to do the bonding, the

level of touch, the level of trust that you're going to build. You're not going to build trust out of a a screen or a

virtual AI bot, you know, talking to a candidate. So on the recruiting front um

I certainly think it will be more efficient. I think the down select will

have will happen quicker. Um one of the things that candidates always complain about is I just never hear back from a

from a recruiter. You know I mean I applied and and some people apply to a 100 jobs and they hear back from two

recruiters. So again in the age of technology I'm always amazed that that can't happen and some companies are better than others at that. So I think

AI will help the process. I think AI will help the tactical operational side

of recruiting. Um, but I it's, you know, it's not going to replace the human side of getting that person through the door.

Can't tell you what it's going to be 10 years from now, but right now where we are with AI, it's moving rapidly. It's

moving extremely quickly in terms of um, how it's evolving, how it's getting better. And what I think if I was

looking into the future where I think AI will really come to the four is in the recruiting space, it's going to be able

to combine a lot of data together. So it's not only going to look at a resume, it's going to cross reference what

certification you have, what degree you have, what programs you've published, have you so so I think a lot of the

knowledge where publicly available because a lot of the the the data sources will come from companies. But I

think painting a better picture of a candidate is where AI is going to help. Um, and it is going to speed that

process along. So, uh, not a good answer. I I think it does have an impact

right now, but I think it's going to purely be on the operational side to to start the day.

Hey Darl, I have a question for you. So when that AI algorithm is pulling data from my educational institutions and my

volunteer work, is it also going to be taking a look at all my social media posts from the last I don't know how

many decades and painting a true picture of me as a human being? Good. I mean

Barbara, it will unfortunately it will you know again we've already had Yeah. No, we we've already had very public uh

discussions, you know, in the last couple years about how social media has come back to to, you know, influence

decisions and influence perspectives of individuals. So, I I do believe it will, Barbara, if if something's out there as

public knowledge, it is going to be referenced in some way by AI. I also think they're gonna it'll be facial

recognition software. Like, I just happen to be walking by a protest and the next thing you know, I don't get the

job. like it's going to be tricky, right? Because data I guess data will

become easier to come by, but how you use that data, especially in making decisions about people's livelihood,

it's really tricky, right? I'm glad it's not my job to figure this out, but it is tricky. Yeah, priv privacy becomes a

huge huge issue. Yeah, Jeeoff, you hit the nail on the head. You know, I think the the thing is AI is moving so quickly

at the moment globally that I I think the reg sort of regulation that may come out will already be overridden the next

day. I think privacy will be a concern. I I think there's going to be this is

very murky water right now. Um, and you know, unfortunately, companies that are getting ahead in the AI space are ones

that are leaving that whole regulation and ethics and privacy side to the side because they've got to move ahead in

what they're doing. So, a very murky waters as to how this is all going to come to the four um in terms of privacy.

Well, I hope AI is helpful for the two of you and people in your profession. It sounds like generally it will be. Think

about this, Jeff. all the hurdles that people like Barbara and Daryl and their

colleagues have to have to clear just to get their job done, right? That that

seem harder, makes it seem like your jobs are harder now than they ever used to be, right? You got um more volume

than of candidates than ever. You have people with more life circumstances than ever. You have less loyalty than ever to

the company. And you have the whole work from home thing. I mean, this is this is a bundle

of stuff that you have to deal with day in and day out. How do you guys keep your heads on straight? It's not easy.

You assume that we do. Um I'm assuming that you do. Yes. I

mean, I think I think if everything was the same as it was 20 years ago, you know, we would have changed jobs, right?

Because it would have ceased to be interesting. So, you know, I like solving problems. So, if they come up

one at a time and I can tackle them and figure out an approach, that's good. If they all show up at the same time, maybe

not. But, I mean, I think I think there's always a solution. There's always a different approach. And I think

it only makes our our product or, you know, the candidates we find better. the

results are going to be better if we continue to make the process um work for

more people, right? So, you know, it's not always a technology solution. Maybe

it's a different approach to how we, you know, fill jobs or assess candidates, but I feel like everybody's job,

especially in the last five years, has gotten so much more complex, right? And

I think the uncertainty right now, I mean, I think there's a lot of chaos in the markets and people, you know, it's

hard to know which way businesses should strategize. And I think that trickles down to recruiting and managing people

and culture. And so I think everyone in the workforce is experiencing some

constant change, right? And I don't think it's any different, at least for what I do, um, than somebody in

marketing or somebody building a product or pricing a product. it and I tend to

be very polyiana about these things. So maybe I'm not the right person to I think you're right. Everybody's jobs are

more complex now than they used to be. Yeah. Yeah. I think the you're sort of the the converse to that, John. I don't

know that it's making it more complex. I I think we're actually being afforded

the opportunity to get better at our jobs. I I think with the source of data, with the availability of AI, with the

you know sort of the presence of an everchanging uh revolution now in terms of of you know where this next step is

um you know in technology. I think it is actually very don't mis don't be misled by the comment I made in my previous

statement is that I'm actually very positive about AI. You know, I I think despite the the pitfalls, I think we're

at a at a real inflection point in history now where it comes to technologies ramping up um you know,

both on the hardware side and the software side. John, you know, I've always said that, you know, we we've got quantum on the one hand that is

providing the processing power to AI on the other hand. So, this is a really

critical point in time for the entire uh you know, world that we have. This is

going to be I do believe it's going to be positive, but like everything there will be, you know, there's ups and downs

in everything that we do. There's there's pros and cons in everything that we do. But, you know, in in sort of

direct contrast to what you're saying, I think there is a lot of opportunity that's going to come out of this. Our our jobs are complex, but conversely, we

can use some of that complexity to make it easier. I've heard it said that people don't

fear change, they fear the unknown. And I think there's a lot of that when it comes to AI, but order to do research

and for everything I'm writing now my god you know what a great resource I can go to chat GPT and ask okay tell me

about this company who are their competitors how's the press coverage been what do people think of them and uh

for things like that it's been fantastic so just my personal yeah and it is mind-blowing you guys are in the

marketing space and communication space you know anybody watching this podcast can put anything into any of the large

language models into chatgpt or co-pilot or and and the quality of the wording

that comes out of there is mind-blowing, you know. So really the speed and the turnaround and the the ability to to uh

you know get things done in a far quicker way I is really already in such a short time mind-blowing. So you know

what it's going to look like in a year's time. Um and we talk about college and we talk about graduates. There's a lot

of challenges right now already um in in the in the college system with you know

open AI and AI completing assignments and and writing papers and writing you

know there's software out there to to try and catch that. But certainly the world is evolving really quickly. And

back to the recruiting piece, the next challenge for Barbara and I is going to be well hold on what this person said,

was that written by AI or where is the the the evidence, the credibility, the

how do we validate that person actually is or has or will do that. So, it's

strange. Now, we've got a slightly different take on that. Barbara, our jobs might have got even more complex now because AI is is going to be the one

that the one thing that we we're gonna have to figure out how to how to handle in the process already. I mean, I will

say AI writes really good job posting. So, if I'm doing that and all of the

people applying are their resumes and cover letters are written by AI, okay,

that fair turnaround is fair play. But at some point they have to be able to speak cogently about what they can do,

what they've accomplished, what they can provide for us. And I think I think the interview is going to have to become so

much more important than the documents that support the recruiting process. Otherwise, you're not going to be able

to make good intelligent decisions about in in the selection process. Yeah. Yeah.

The two words that I'll use to describe that in a nutshell is something which uh

a gentleman by the name of Jason Averabbook who who works for Mercer put on a slide last week at one of the

conferences I was at and it was connected and connection AI is connected but humans are going to make the

connection. So, so that's where the distinguishing that you're still going to have to your point Barbara, you're

still going to have that connection piece which is actually all right, great that they put this through through AI

and this is a resume, but they cannot speak to what's on there. That's the connection piece. Yeah, I love it. You

know what I'd like to I'd like to know, Jeff, what do you think? How do we even know that we're talking to Barbara and

Daryl? Do we really know that? I don't know. They could be deep fakes. They

could be bots for all we know. Exactly. Hey, hey guys. Absolute pleasure. Um, hey, what a

fascinating discussion. I could talk to you guys all day long. We could do a whole separate series of podcasts on AI,

of course, but I just want to say thank you both. It is great to see you both. Two of my favorites. Um, and also

Barbara, we shouldn't forget we also work together at Avery Dennison. I know. I was thinking that, too, but I never

saw you. That's I know. I know. Um, but anyway, uh, I thank you both. Any any

closing comments that you'd like to make. That was a great discussion. You asked

really good questions and hopefully anybody who listens to this podcast will

get something uh, glean something from it. Oh, I have I have no doubt that they

will. Yeah. Go back to the first comment we made. It's very important to make yourself marketable, very important to

build your brand and and get out there and you'll find a job. 100%. That's

great. Well done. Thank you uh to each of you. If you want to take a look first at our website, we're at www

um clients first marketing and communications or just MC.

mc.com and you'll find out a lot about us. You'll also see links to our podcasts and you'll have um a clear

channel, a clear link to our social channels. We're on all the most relevant ones and uh and please take a visit

there and you'll learn more about us and why we might make sense, why we might not make sense and you can choose for

yourself. But please join us again in another two weeks when we offer you a a podcast on I have no idea right now,

John, but we'll think of it. We will figure it out, I'm sure. But if it's half as good as this one, I think it's

going to be pretty good. We're gonna be lucky. We're gonna be lucky. Hey, thank you, Barbara. Thank you, Darl. And of

course, thank you, John. Thanks, guys, for having us. Byebye.