[Music] Welcome to On the Offense, our bimonthly

podcast where we talk about essentially being on the offense with regard to all things marketing in communications.

Today is a very special day for two reasons. one is, and uh our three

panelists, you probably don't know this, Jeff. You know this, today is our firm's

first anniversary year. Congratulations.

If it was just Jeff and I, I would probably be forcing both of us to wear party hats.

But that ain't happening. We're gonna have to behave ourselves a little bit more, Jeff, because we're surrounded by

esteemed experts. People who are smarter than we are. They're way smarter than us.

Has a no funny hat rule. I do. Glad you remember that. So, yeah. I mean, this is our first

anniversary. We're actually going to put out a post uh a few minutes after this podcast. So, we launched our agency one

year ago today. Uh so, we're really excited about that. And then the second reason this is a a really special day is

this is our first podcast where we have not one, not two, but three guests. So

we are expecting an especially lively and interesting discussion. The topic for today it is part three of the

three-part podcast series that we kicked off last month. The right place, right time, right people. Part one was right

place and we really talked about Texas as being a great place to do business. And by the way, not coincidentally, all

three of our panelists today are based in Texas. In fact, all based here in in

Dallas. It is a great place to do business. I'm singing to the choir uh with these faces. But that's what we

talked about in terms of right place. When we focused for part two, we did

right time. And that's the podcast a couple of weeks ago where we talked about now being a really really good

time in in our view to be with a smaller agency as opposed to a larger agency.

And you know they you see the headlines almost every day there's a new one and it just seems to us that the apple cart

of larger agencies is pretty much upside down right now if not at least very much

sideways. We feel like this is the right time to be in a smaller agency. And then that leads us to part three, which is

today, which is right people. And it it really is very good timing, Jeff, on our anniversary. Talk about right people

because when we first launched the agency a year ago, we did talk up the fact that we had a network of people,

not only to add scale to essentially a twoman band, but also we wanted the

world to know that we had a ton of talent at our disposal. One of the big differences between a year ago today and

now is we've really blown out this network. We have far more people in it

than we did a year ago. We have far more coverage kind of crossf functionally as well as geographically in all parts of

the US and in two or three cases outside of the US. We felt good about it a year

ago. We feel great about it today. And the three people that you're about to meet here in a second um are living

examples of why we feel so great about the people in our network. We are close

to uh unveiling an updated website in a few weeks and that will go much further

in terms of promoting the network and all the good people we have in it. That's kind of the setup here. Let's

move into the discussion. I suppose the best thing to do is ask each of our guests to do a quick intro of themselves

andor their firm and then we'll get into hopefully a really free flowing interesting and lively discussion. So,

Carol, may we start with you? First of all, congratulations for your one year. That's something

that's something to celebrate and um thank you. I'm I'm honored and humbled to be here with all of you. So about

myself, my business, I've always been a huge reader, a huge storyteller, and I

am one of the few people on this planet who have been lucky enough to um build

my passion into a career, which is NPR and marketing. Very early on, I started

with a newspaper, worked for a record company. Then I went corporate and

worked for several years with an IT company and really cut my teeth there in

internal communications and PR. Then I went to a PR agency and then I went out

on my own and started my own consultancy. And I based my I've always

based my business on what I learned working with agencies and for an agency

early on in that in my consultancy is where I had the pleasure of meeting John and Jeff. So I have worked with them for

a long time. I've also helped brands all over the world from Fortune 100 to

startups to nonprofits and I love the strategy, the tactics, content, video,

live events, everything. I I love getting my hands dirty and um then I've

also published three novels. So

we know your name, but tell the audience your full name. I don't think we actually said your name.

Oh, Carol Barer. I apologize. Carol Ber and my name is Addison Bray.

Addison Bray. Nice. See a book by Addison Bray. It's Carol. I like it. Carol, welcome and thank you

for joining us so much. Kent, why don't we move next to you? We're gonna go alphabetically here, I guess.

Sure. Kent Schers. So, I've been in communications past couple decades. I

started the first half of my career kind of in the in the political spectrum doing communications for politicians,

candidates, working on Capitol Hill and in the White House in Washington DC. But I'm a native Texan, born and raised. So

I migrated back home um in 2014 and started um kind of my agency career

there. I've spent time at two large global agencies and then a more regional

focused uh midsize agency. So I most recently was at Edelman senior vice

president in charge of public affairs here in Texas. Um and really enjoyed um

getting to to get deep with clients. But now doing it on my own, u being able to

to spend more and more time with clients has been been a really fun fun experience. So happy to be here and

congrats on one year and thank you. Thank you so much and welcome. Yeah, Ken Ken used to sit next to me at

HMK. So and and I had the pleasure of sitting right next to Jeff for several years

while we were at Helen Nolton. Uh so I I can tell some stories uh at some point.

As can I. And last, but anything but least, Alex Wells. Alex, great to see

you. Welcome. Yeah, thank you so much. I'm I'm really uh happy to be here with you. And uh as

as the other said, congratulations on your on your one year. That's a huge milestone. So, my my firm I've actually

had my firm for 23 years. Um which is kind of unbelievable to think about. I remember

hitting the one-year milestone and the 10-year milestone and the 20-y year milestone. And it's uh it's nice to feel

that feeling. My business is uh named ours Wells. It's a combination of two

names, a former partner's last name and my last name. And uh we both went to

college together, started the firm shortly after we graduated. And he left the business in 2013,

which put me on kind of a quest to uh start to think about the next era of the

firm. And uh over the decade, you know, that uh that that followed, I started

really getting serious about uh renaming, rebranding, recasting a new

identity. Of course, we all had to cope with the pandemic which uh threw a

wrinkle in a lot of plans. The uh good news is that we are now we're on the

cusp of launching a whole new name uh a whole new identity and uh really a whole

new uh strategy for the business. We've always been kind of a creative boutique

uh and that will, you know, creative will still be a core part of what we do, but there's going to be a lot more that

we're going to be able to bring to the table now. So, it's an exciting time and in many ways I feel like a startup again

and uh am looking forward to being here with you a year from now to celebrate my

oneyear uh anniversary as as the new and improved version of my agency.

I love it. Well, forward to seeing the rebrand uh go public soon. All right.

Well, we're off to the races. Jeff, why don't I turn it over to you? Turn it over to me. Yes.

Q&A going. I figured I'd add my two cents here before we turned it over to you guys. The philosophy behind the way

we're set up. John and I are partners. We own the firm, but we need resources.

Something we hear from a lot of clients is, "Oh, it's just the two of you guys. How?" And the beauty of using this

freelance network is we can scale up and scale down as needed. Um, John and I

both done a lot of things during our careers, but we do have gaps. So anyway, I just wanted to ask each of you and uh

we can switch it up a little bit. Let's start with Kent. Why do you find this arrangement attractive and uh what you

really love to do um with regard to PR? I think the key is that it creates value

for the client more than anything else. I always want to put myself in the client's shoes and so many agencies,

many of the global agencies have become such behemoths and cost prohibitive to a

lot of organizations that they're not even able to take advantage of it. But they need this deep expertise, this deep

experience of people that have been in the trenches, that have done the jobs that um some of these CCOs are working

on. um and they need somebody that that has the experience that this type of of

network provides. So for me it it's it just it's a great opportunity to provide

value for a client. Um and of course I enjoy the public affairs, the crisis and

the corporate communication side of things, but to to your point, you know, I I'm not a creative director in any

sense. And so being able to leverage somebody that's a really great creative director to provide again great value

for the clients makes this network really attractive. Alex, um since you are on that creative

end, um you know, why is this sort of arrangement attractive to you? Yeah. Well, uh I I echo a lot of what

Kent said. I think another another big factor is just that it's becoming a lot more commonplace um to have you know

kind of a distributed model like this and and uh you know the expectation I

know a lot of you guys are used to working with very big companies most of my clients are small and midsize

businesses and they could never afford a behemoth agency anyway u but I think

whereas maybe five or 10 years ago uh you know there was this really strong

necessity or desire to have, you know, everybody under your roof working uh on

your payroll. I think in general clients have become a lot more used to and and

really uh you know, embracing the model of pull in the resources you need when you need them and as long as it's

steered by somebody that's got that expertise and that strategic uh cap uh

that can integrate that then, you know, it works. And that's obviously been

pretty central to how we've operated even before that was, you know, really the common model because we hire, you

know, specialists in video or animation or, you know, uh, illustrators or things

like that to complement our workforce in the in the creative space. But overall, I mean, I think it's just uh you know,

uh like you guys have wisely done, connecting with the right people that have the skill sets that you need to uh

plug in and support your client with whatever is needed based on any given

situation and and they too appreciate that model. Let me turn it over to Carol

who is our most recent um addition to our teamm and uh a great asset. She uh

she worked for us at EDS for a long time and uh and she's been off on her own doing great things ever since.

Yeah. Thank you. Um, you know, Kent and and Alex, you guys covered

most of the things that that that I also agree with, but you know, the where we

are where the where we as professionals and our clients and the world is today, it's it's all about trust.

And um you know on day one when I went out on my own I

I made a decision that I was going to work with a network of people and not

hire employees. So from day one I I have believed in this model. I just never formalized it and I applaud you guys for

doing that. So you know again working with with Jeff and John they're

professionals that I know and trust. great reputations, really nice people,

and you know, that's what clients need as well. They want to build a relationship with a group of of

professionals that they can trust, that they can hand a project over and expect

to get results. And um then you know to kind of build on that there's something

that I've learned and and I went out on my own in the 2000s and so I've seen so

many ups and downs in the economy and I've learned how the economy really impacts our business and this network

model works really well. For example, when the economy is booming companies,

nonprofits are so busy that they need to expand their teams to be able to get the

work done. when the economy slows down and they get a little more conservative,

maybe have layoffs, the reality is the work doesn't go away. So that's when

they end up pulling in, you know, agencies and corporations pull in people

like us to be able to carry the weight because they don't want to add the headcount. And if you guys will allow me

to make a prediction, the this AI economy that we are in,

my prediction is that companies are cutting staff. There's a lot of

companies that have said we're now AI first. But I don't believe that work is

going to go away. And I also think that companies are not going to get the

quality of work and the results that they hope to get if they depend on AI as

much as they think they can. So I think that's also an opportunity for us to

come in from strategy to tactics if they need someone to do um strategy or you

know manage a project whatever something that AI can't do. So we can come back to

this in a year or so and see if my prediction comes true. No that's actually very good. But I I

was actually at a seminar the other day where the speaker who specializes in AI said, you know, AI is not going to

replace that many people. It's going to replace people who aren't AI literate.

And uh that's kind of the way I'm looking at it right now. And some great opportunities, but also, you know,

there's some things we need to keep our eye on depending on how intelligent artificial intelligence gets. So, thank

you, Carol. Sure. I might just piggyback on that. um and ask about to what extent do you all

leverage AI in serving clients? I mean we all talk about oh AI is coming and

it's going to take our jobs or not and but that sometimes I find these articles

and discussions they're forwardlooking but they don't always imply strongly

enough that we're already using it right. I mean I I remember I can think

back to one company I was in where where I arrived as the new leader of the

department and they were already using AI to do certain things but they were

afraid to tell me. Um I stumbled upon it a few months later and I said why didn't

you tell me earlier? I think it's great that you're doing that. They said, "Well, we didn't want you to think that

we we we wanted you to think we were doing it all all ourselves. We didn't want you to think, oh, well, a computer

can do it now. You can get rid of some of us." I said, "No, more power to you in using it because there's plenty of

other work." I mean, it just means you can if you can save 10% here, well, we

need 10% over there, right? So, that's a little bit of an aside from my question.

I mean I to what extent do you do you use AI in serving clients? Is it

helpful? Is it not helpful? Is it as great as everybody says? What do you guys think? Yeah, I'll kick it off. I I use it quite

a bit. Um primarily on the front end of when I'm working on projects, that

brainstorming um start of the project is really where I find a lot of value in it. Uh, and it

makes sure that I'm being comprehensive when I'm putting together communications plans or what have you or when I'm

creating a media list. If it's an industry I haven't dealt with in a while, I'll forget like, is that

automotive news or is that car and driver? And it will pick up that, oh yeah, you need to include this in your

media list or what have you. So, I use it a lot on the front end on that

brainstorming, making sure I'm covering all my bases and what have you. I I do

to your point notice I do notice the language is just a little bit off when I

get something back from them. So I'm always editing. I'm always um working on

it. Um and I did read an article today that was kind of a thought leadership

from a benchmarking organization in our industry talking about what the future state of AI might look like. and it was

talking about all the things that AI could be doing in the background while you're doing something else. Um, but you

really it's the input that you're providing to AI that is really critical in getting an output product that you

need. And so that this article I was reading was talking about, sure, you can put your company's style guide into it

to make sure it maintains, you know, brand guidelines or what have you, but if you don't know, uh, the executive

that you're working with, your CEO or whatever, um, really likes to use this phrase versus some other phrase, that's

the stuff that AI is not going to know other than you just interacting with it.

But you know that because you've been interacting with the executives. um leadership team um and you can provide

that edit being like oh yeah the CEO really likes to use this phrase when talking about what um you know this

topic. So it it's I use it a lot, but primarily on the front end on that brainstorming start,

great examples, you know, to build on on what you just said, um I'm wondering and I I have a

feeling that AI is going to get better at, for example, writing in a certain

executive's voice, especially if they have a lot to work from. So, I think that's something that AI is going to get

better at, but I just hope and pray that the human doesn't get out of the that,

you know, being involved with it and leading the AI. Um, and you know to more

directly answer your question, John, just yesterday I um used chat GPT to

shorten a really really long bio, a speaker bio that that somebody sent me

and it needed to be spoken from the stage and it was one of those long flowery words that no one would ever

speak and so first thing I did was plug it into chat GPT and it probably cut my time in half because a I was able to

revise from that rather than the one that that was ridiculously long. Um, and

I also use it for administrative stuff, you know, and I managing calendars and

and you know, summarizing um transcribing audio, summarizing

meeting notes. I also use it to test headlines for certain audiences just to kind of be my devil's advocate and

that's kind of fun. But you got to get really good at at writing the right prompts, right? That's key.

And one thing that I really feel like um we as professionals have a great

opportunity to do right now is to help our clients be honest and transparent and ethical. It's sort of like what you

were saying that John that your client was afraid to tell you. It's like well why would you tell would you be afraid

to tell somebody you had employees? No. So, as long as people are are making the

right decisions on things that that impact their reputation and then they have nothing to worry

about. But that's there are companies out there that are making bad decisions.

I mean, yeah, it's scary to think what technology can

do. It's also very exciting because I think we have a a real opportunity to influence it.

100%. 100%. Alex, you're our creative guy here. I, you know, in my u one of my advertising

classes just this past semester that I teach at uh we did an exercise one day. We'll

create an ad with AI. And we did that and uh and the stuff that the students came up with was pretty darn good. But

if you really started to look at it that the people looked a little weird. There were these weird spots in their skin.

like you could if you really looked at it, you could tell their hands look a little weird, too.

Yeah. Just like just wasn't real. Now, it can be very good for brainstorming purposes and things like that for sure,

but it's easy to poke holes in it when you really look at it. I mean, what do you

what do you think of that? How do how do you use it for your clients? Well, first of all, I mean, I agree with

that. I think in terms of practical applications for creativity, it is not,

you know, reliable enough yet to be completely depended upon. Um, but I will

say that it's going to get, you know, as we've said, it's going to get better and better and better. And, you know, Carol

said something earlier about the the most important thing is trust. And as

these tools start to earn our trust and our clients trust then then they will

become the way. And uh I went through kind of an existential

bout of you know uh the world is going to end. I'm going to be out of a job.

And then I just started realizing, well then the only opportunity we have and

the smartest and best use of my time and resources is to engineer the future of

my agency with AI being a critical component of that and that's that's what

we're doing. Um we use it extensively for research, concept development,

content development. uh you know obviously everything is is verified and

checked and uh you know uh polished by humans but it is it's central to what we

do now. it will continue to be more and more a part of what we do. And I think

that the big opportunity for agencies um and and networks such as what you're

building is, you know, people who can not only use these tools to create, but

that can uh help clients use them responsibly and wisely. Now, does that

paint us into a corner and potentially put us out of a job? Some might say it

could, but I would tell you that the greater opportunity is, you know, jumping into that and, you know, earning

revenue from teaching clients about prompting and the things that can make

AI successful. And that's that's going to be a a pillar of, you know, what our

new brand is about because I just know without a shadow of a doubt that if if

our premise was uh continuing to be on humandriven creativity, you know, we've

got we've got a shelf life of maybe two or three more years before that's obsolete. And I'm not saying that there

will be no need for human creativity. I'm just saying it can't be all we do.

It can't be the the way that we operate as it has been for the past 20 years.

Yeah. I mean, boy, part of me wants to just keep going with AI. I mean, we could

talk about it all day. Jeff and I, you you and I have talked about doing a podcast only on AI. Yeah.

We have. It's clear from your comments that this is a big deal. I mean, obviously, right?

And it's affecting how you work now. It's going to change how you work going forward and it is going to be a bigger

and bigger deal. No, you're right. Can I say one more thing just and and

this is a a plug for something I have no stake in whatsoever, but I I've read a book that really uh transformed my

thinking on this. I would recommend it to you all. It's called How to Think About AI.

Oh, pretty logical uh book title. Uh it's by a g guy named uh Richard Suskin

and uh it's it's been pretty uh transformational in how I have chosen to

uh incorporate AI into my agency. Interesting. I appreciate that. I'm

actually going to go out and buy that. I'll borrow the book from you after you buy it. There you go. And I was online looking

at some of these deep fakes and just in the course of six weeks. I mean, these

things are getting better and better and better. So, think about the next election cycle, how that could be used.

Um, how people could be recreated in a cyber version of themselves with an

entirely different dialogue of things they're saying that, you know, probably would horrify them. I I'm personally

quite concerned about this whole conversation about deep fakes. And I think Carol, it goes to your point about

trust and how do you build that sort of trusted relationship with the consumer,

with your customer, with your audience that they know what you're putting out is accurate. I saw, I think it was an

article about uh Blake Shelton, the country singer, who had a deep fake that

went viral on Facebook that he was handing out water in the flooding in the Texas Hill Country. and he was nowhere

near there, but that was what went viral and it looked very real. Like he was

giving out water and he, you know, he had to let people know that that was not

actually him, that someone had created this virtual image of him being at a place he never was. Um, but I think

again it goes to we we've got we've got to do something to recreate and maintain

that trusted relationship with our audience. And the news media just isn't going to do it in the future. They've

lost the trust of large swaths of audiences. And so, you know, what does a

corporation, what does an organization, what does an executive do to maintain that trusted relationship with its

audience? Because once you lose that trust, it you're you're in deep deep

trouble. No question about it. And you feel bad for Blake Shelton in a case like that

because the deep fake was showing him doing something good. Good. Right. Right. And he had to say, "Well, I I'm

not as good as you think I am." Right. It's not like deep fake was of of him doing something bad. I mean, so, you

know, he has to I I don't know. The whole thing is just Yeah, you're right. It's It is concerning. It's very

concerning. And Ken, you're right. You know, trust is everything. When I was doing media relations, you'd have your AP, you'd

have your Dallas Morning News, you'd have your whatever local reporters, um, and you'd have beat reporters, you know,

you'd have five of them you needed to get to know, and you formed a deep relationship, and you could go back and

forth, and they knew who you were. They they trusted you. How can you do that now? and you know they're all national

publications or international and there's nobody assigned to clients first

in Plano. Um and and so that creates a a problem. You know, the cold call is the

the most horrible thing that any of us have have. Maybe that maybe that should be our next

goal, Jeff, that we're going to get so big that somebody's going to have to assign a reporter to cover us. What do

you think? I think that's a great goal. You know, going back to something that Kent said that um and you know, back to the whole

trust thing, I read something, I think it was from Reagan, and it was a

different take on, you know, one thing that I I've learned in my years of of consulting is,

you know, to be successful, I can't just focus on my client and building trust

with my client. I have to look further than that. I have to look at my clients clients at their audiences. But a

different take on that that this article talked about since since journalists have lost so much

trust from the public. That's an opportunity for for us to help

um help journalists regain that that trust if we can. And if we think not

necessarily of targeting our messages, our clients messages to the journalist,

but to the the journalist's audiences. And I never really taken it that far.

And I think that's that's kind of like, well, of course you do that, but I think it's even more important now because

trust is is so low amongst the news media these days. The stat that Jeff and

I have used on a I think on a prior podcast, 31%.

Is the trust level of media in general. Now, you can you can carve that up and

you're going to find different numbers, but 31% in general. I think that's of the mainstream media. Think about that.

And the number 31% is in the is in the, you know, and that's right where

politicians and lawyers are, right? Wow. This is a historic low. That could

also be a whole separate podcast, but no, trust is huge when it comes to stuff like this. So, we're talking about

things changing, right? talk to us and talk to our audience if

you will about what are your views about, you know, I referred to my class

and the the way I often describe it to the students is, you know, you got paid

media, you got owned media, you got earned media, right? And how are those

different types of media changing? How is paid media changing? advertising and

other things. How is owned media changing? Obviously social um deep

fakes, right? And then earned media. Yeah. You you talk about earned. Okay. Well, nobody trusts journalists anymore.

But then you also see different surveys that say that at least if a story comes

out in a certain publication, it's more trusted than anything else, right? So, you're not quite sure what to think. Let

talk let's kind of have an open discussion about that. How are all these various types of media evolving?

Well, I I can speak maybe uh a little bit from the standpoint of a person who

doesn't come as much from from your world because I think most everybody on

on this call is uh from the earned media background and that's never been uh an

area that we've played extensively in. Um we started as you know as a creative

boutique and paid media was pretty much all we did. Uh then and as we got into

the digital era you know the owned media uh with website content social media

became a big focus. Uh and I think that you know my observation has just been

that there's just been a continual sort of breakdown of the walls between those

those uh categories and uh you know I don't know I don't know how how

scientific this is but I can just tell you that with a client now a new client

uh you know my approach would be to kind of think above all of those things and think about the core uh objectives the

core brand message the core or brand strategy and then figure out you know how to use all those channels uh

collectively. Um now that is in a way no

different than what we have always known is a good approach but I think it just

now seems to bleed more across these you know traditional uh dividers that uh you

know that it once was. So, I don't know that that's a really great answer, but I my my my observation

is just really that that paid media, earned media, and owned media are all

really ways of communication now that are equally important and uh and and and tie

together uh a thread that makes, you know, the the whole organization stronger.

Well, that's one of the reasons we we like this idea of having a network, right? Wouldn't it be nice from a client

perspective if you can get it all from one place, right? uh and and and you may not when I say

one place I mean a you know a place that has organizationally disconnected pieces

but it's still funneled into the client through in our case it could be through us and we can bring to them you know

here's some paid media here's some own here's some you know etc right

Carol and Kent what do you what do you think about all that the one thing that comes to my mind um about owned media is I think our

opportunity is to treat owned media like the news media would treat their their

publication. For example, if and and it's very similar to what Alex was

saying. If you plan what you're going to communicate and how you're going to

communicate it to reach certain audiences, you know, those those things haven't changed over the time. what's

changing is the media itself and then how we create

it. Um the challenge that I always have in creating any sort of content is

helping clients create and approve content that's journalistic and not hype. And with all

due respect to my clients, and I'm not trying to make anyone angry, but

people can't write anymore. And um whether it's a video script or a speech

or a a brochure or you know whatever it

is, the writing that I see out there is just

shameful. I almost wish they would use AI to do it. I think it might be better. Um but those are to me the kinds of

things that we can help with. And I've never been a big fan of paid editorial.

I would much rather see a client spend money on advertising or in today's

terms spend time boosting social posts to get your your thought leadership out

there to get your really cool video that you did and that launch launching your

new product whatever it is. Spending the money to distribute owned media rather than paying for

editorial to me is is gold. Yeah, I'll I'll kind of add on to that,

Carol, because you know, the state of the news me media and the business of

the news media is so poor right now. There's so much more of that sponsored content opportunities and and I'm seeing

more and more of, you know, traditional editorial opportunities being framed in

more of a sponsored content, a paid opportunity. So that um that that wall

between the editorial and the advertising is quickly kind of dissipating and kind of falling by the

wayside. I do think that the own side and this is part of the conversation

that we've had is more and more important than ever. Um because through the own side you go directly to your

audience. And that's been kind of one of my mantras the past few months is go direct. Go direct to your audience. And

so through that those own channels, if you create to your point, Carol, kind of

that newsroom model where you're providing value to the audience, you're having an editorial mindset, but

utilizing the organization's website to get information that's helpful to the audience. they they start to again build

that trust and you create um an opportunity to um yeah create a a

newsroom where people are coming to your website and getting content that's valuable. Um so it's not just an ad for

your product or whatever. It's you know why why you want to be using your product or why it's creating value

within somebody the audience's life. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And if I

think about things we've all been involved with, John and I, John's former firm, um, I won't use the name, but they

did a security index that they put out every year, and it was real statistics.

Unison. What's that? You can say the name. Okay. Unicus. It was Unicus. And we did

a press conference in DC, you know, getting people to be there for the unveiling of these stats. And that

worked out great, but it also had really good third party credibility. So, it was kind of a mixture of paid media plus

real stuff. And I think if you can add that real stuff, um that makes a big

difference. Well, it certainly is uh it certainly is, you know, just uh kind of

mind-blowing to think about how, you know, uh to Carol's point, you can you can write a a post on on an owned

channel, hit a button to make it a paid channel and it can get picked up by somebody that makes it an earned

channel. Uh so you know your content has more you know

substantive content has more power than than it used to almost uh in that

regard. It sounds like like the most important thing is the quality of the content

because to your point Alex it can be all three, right? Um, and so, and I suppose that's never

really changed. I mean, has it hasn't it always been about the quality of the

content? It's just the distribution channels are different. I completely agree with you, John, and

to me, you've absolutely hit the nail on the head that the goal has never

changed. Um, the goal is to get the story out and it

needs to be clear and honest and told in ways that resonate with the audience.

Yeah. I mean, argue with that. Has that ever was that different 25 years ago?

No. No. No. And I don't think it'll be different. Hopefully, it won't be different in 25

years, but it I'm fearful that people won't care anymore. Oh gosh. Well, you know, and you bring

up the the poor writing skills. So, Jeff Jeff and I had lunch with a uh ex uh

journalist uh award-winning journalist, ex agency person yesterday, and he was

talking about the poor writing skills of some people that he had come across.

And these were people who wanted to do this for a living, right? These aren't

these aren't math majors. That's not fair to math majors, but you know what I mean. That you know, these are people

who have been educated. Yeah. In writing related subjects and are

wanting to get into a communications related job and they can't write.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, if it's always been about the content and it's still about the content

and hopefully in the future will remain about the content, if the writing's gone

down now, it's probably just going to get worse, isn't it? How are we going to

absolutely the quality of the content in 25 years from now, AI or not? Now, I often relate

this um particularly when I was in the agency world, um we'd we'd have

presentations where we'd get the head of the manufacturing practice and the

co-head of the firm to go in and and pitch a client. And they'd say, "Oh, if

you go with us, we're going to do this program and this program, and it's going to make your impressions out there go

wild and uh and we'll put our best minds on it." And then you sign them up. And

not to denigrate these people, but I I know at one agency I was at, and Kent knows this too, the vast majority of

people were 26 to 28-year-old

people coming out of school who had never had another job. And while they

worked hard and use viewed it as an opportunity, they didn't have the connections to fulfill the projects. And

instead of having these guys who are billing, you know, 400,500, $600 an

hour, you've got these people billing very low, but we were making a huge

profit margin off of them. And that's at least one thing that we can provide is,

you know, if we're on a project, John and I are going to be directly involved and we're going to bring in great people

like the three of you to help. And um and that's that's lost on a lot of

people. And I and I can tell you the vast majority of those people could not write. They were they were terrible

writers. How did I have a question? How did they get the job in the first place? They

couldn't write. How does that happen? You know, if you're a good talker, a

good communicator, you lock eyes with people, you can you can get pretty far.

There's also something to think about, I think, in terms of of that that uh that we all need to be cognizant of. You

know, the value of good writing obviously has always been important and I think will will always be important,

but the the way that that audiences are consuming content and what constitutes

writing in terms of storytelling and conveying important messages

is evolving and it's going to continue to evolve. I mean, think about the, you

know, how we use emojis in our text communications now. And, you know, that's uh that's

something that is just, it's little things like that that are transforming the way that we as people consume

information and uh uh you know uh communicate with others. Uh yes, there

is a complete and utter breakdown of you know uh good writing in terms of AP

style or uh proper syntax among a lot of the people that are in the workforce

now. But I think what's incumbent on us is to be able to tell good meaningful

stories and relay information accurately and clearly

and you know that is content development uh and writing I think in the modern era

that that we can all get better at even if there are systematic changes in what

that looks like. Well said. That's that's a great point. You know, may maybe we need to institute

a new rule, Jeff. Anything that goes out the door from clients first, it's 140 characters or less. What do you think?

Is that fair? That makes sense. Yeah. No, but people communicate in bite-sized pieces now.

That's very different than in the past. And just the way we do texts and emails

and everything else. I never was one to use an ellipsus in everything I write,

but now I do. This has been a great discussion. Uh, a great great discussion

as expected. We could go on for another hour talking about all sorts of things. Um, why don't we just maybe Jeff throw

it out to these guys one last time and if there's anything anything you'd like to close with. Any advice to people who

want to get into advertising or communications or PR?

Carol, of you know, we all have the novel within us. You're one of the few that's actually brought it to the four.

If you have any advice for smaller agencies on how to succeed these days,

you talk about the era of the smaller agency. Well, that's fine. Well, if there are a lot more smaller agencies now, there's more competition among

smaller agencies, right? So, how do you make yourself stand out as a consultant or a smaller agency or any advice to um

to clients? not necessarily about ourselves, but you know, what should clients be looking for if they're

looking for the best and the brightest to bring their stories to life? Ken, can we start with you? Closing comment

or Yeah. I mean, I think at the end of the day, we're in a um client focused

business and um creating value for clients, being responsive, working hard

are timeless values that aren't changing. So, as long as you be responsive to the client, understand

what their challenges are, get close to what they're um what they're trying to

solve, um you know, my advice for for the younger crowd is like don't don't be

afraid to ask those questions. Um and and you'll be all right. Um but yeah, so

often it amazes me the lack of timeliness and responsiveness that um so

many people have these days and you can really set your apart yourself apart by

by being clients first. So 100%. Well well said.

Well said. Carol, what do you think? So

if viewers only remember one thing from this this fantastic conversation,

in my opinion, it should be remember that the goal to get the story out has

not changed. The difference is um finding people who

know the right questions to ask and who will actually listen

to your answers. Yep. Well, also well said,

Carol. Thank you. Thank you guys. What do you think?

Uh well, I I would say that uh you know, I think in this conversation has touched

on what a lot of a lot of us in the communications industry are very um

consumed with and concerned about which is our our future and the direction of our business and uh the changes that are

impacting our business and the quality of uh material that uh is abundant in

our business. And I think that the most important thing for us to remember because I I'm I'm fairly certain that

all of us on this call are are over the age of 40. Uh and it's easy it's easy

for us to to sometimes feel like we're, you know, like we're uh uh diminishing. We're not.

We need to find new and innovative ways to deliver value to our clients. We need

to continue doing the things that we do very well. we need to be proud of what we do and and continue to trumpet that

and and that's exactly what you guys are doing through this podcast and I applaud you for it because um you know that's

the the advice I would give to an emerging agency is that you know you've

got to you got to be out there you got to be vocal. I failed to do that and you know we're paying the price for that

now. Um, so, uh, in our next iteration of my of my company, I'm going to do a

much better job of that. But, uh, you know, the business is changing. It will continue to change. But, I think as long

as we can demonstrate that we are adding value, that we're telling great stories, that we're moving the needle and

performing, then there's always going to be a place for us, and hopefully technology will just enhance that.

Very well said, Alex. Thank you. Thank you all three of you. uh individually

and collectively. Fantastic discussion. We we are beyond proud not to only not

only to have you on this podcast but to have you as partners in our network. We really really appreciate it. And for any

of you wondering, you can see for yourselves, right? I mean, these are smart people. Um the word trust, Carol,

kudos to you for being the one to bring it up. Uh we all kind of jumped on the incredible importance of that. Um, so

thank you all very very much. Jeff, you want to close it down? Yeah, I'll close it down. And again, thank you to the three of you. I you

you've given me further faith in our model that we've set up because obviously you're articulate. You've been

around the block a few times and you bring a lot of wisdom to clients. So, um, thank you for that. Uh, this is the

self-promotional part of our broadcast, the end the ending salvo. And um please

uh if you need anything from the marketing or PR end, give us a ring, go

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