[Music] Well, hey, welcome to our 20th edition

of On the Offense, which is a podcast we've been doing. We try to make it topical. We sometimes do it ourselves,

just uh me and of course John Clintenning, my my esteemed business partner. Um,

but today we have the benefit of being joined by two legends of the field. And

I I I say that with all sincerity. Um, we've got Tom Martin who is um, pretty

much a hall of famer with regard to communications. Cut his teeth at ITT, you know, developing a world-class

function there. Um, now he's at the College of Charleston. Um, where he's

established a center for communications excellence and uh, he's also been very active in the Arthur Page Society,

Arthur W. Page Society for many years and even served as president. Um, on the

other hand, we've got Tom Matia, who John and I know really well because he was our boss and uh, he's someone I

respect greatly. Anytime people ask me, well, who's your mentor? Who was the person who influenced your career the

most, it doesn't take me too long to come up with that name. So, Tom, I really appreciate everything you've done

for me. Well said. I feel the same way. the um

the very first guest I'll don't mean to cut you off Jeff but just a quick aside here the Jeff you tell me if I have this

right I think the first time we had a guest on our podcast was our fifth or

sixth where we had smooch Reynolds we did right who is this the recruiter who

recruited all three of us and a handful of others to EDS around the same time in

that magical summer of 2000 and and I I feel the same way, Tommy, about you.

You're you're you're my guy. Um, you know, you when I and when I think of my

mentors, people especially people who I've come across at multiple stages of

my career in life, I think of you and Smooch basically. And uh, so I I would

echo what Jeff says. We appreciate you very much. It is beyond thrilling uh, to have both of you

here. Uh we're just um it for the for our viewers, if if Jeff and I look a

little deer in the headlights, that's because we're essentially in the presence of communications royalty. We

really are. And that goes for both Tom uh M's here. Um I'm not sure how we're

going to handle that as we go here, Jeff, but Well, they do have different middle initials, which we've learned. Thank God for that.

But back back to you. No, no. And a little bit on Tom's background. He started off as a

journalist and then he moved on spent many a year at IBM where he kind of learned the craft. Uh moved on to do

some great things. Um you were at four motor companies through Lincoln Mercury before you headed to EDS. Um where you

had a great influence on our department and on John John and me of course on our

professions and then you went on from there chief communications officer at Coca-Cola. Talk about a job.

um and then to Yale where he um he headed communications and finally I

guess you went on to become chairman of Edelman in China. So those were great stops along the way. You're on the board

at Peabody Awards. Um now you you've had a full career, but you you still have a

lot of wisdom to give. So that's kind of our motto here. Wisdom. We're all about wisdom.

Don't be afraid to retire. Don't be afraid to retire. Okay. I love

it. Yeah. No fear. Sound like a nice concept. It It's a great concept.

Yeah. So So my weeks are my weeks are six Saturdays on a Sunday.

I like that. That's a great philosophy because it's always five o'clock somewhere. Right.

Right. Anyway, our theme this week is mentor mentorship and uh it's it's topical. We

tried to keep these somewhat topical with regard to what's going on in the world, what's going on in the news.

Well, the school year's begun. Clearly, our profession, journalism, free press,

all the a lot of different challenges right now. And we think there's probably no important concept out there that's

that's more important than having great mentors. you know, you don't take over um the helm of a an air aircraft in

flight if you haven't flown one before without the guidance of someone who's been there, done that, cut his or her

teeth and is credentialed. And I think you can say that about both these gentlemen, which uh we're so happy you

um you've joined us. So, I'll I'll just put this out there for both of you. Um what uh

in your life as you were coming up in the profession and you've gained such

great status in the profession, how important was mentor mentoring to you?

Did you have certain people you modeled yourselves after um that gave you a full

understanding of the profession and why um freedom of the press is so valuable and um and why we need this upcoming

crop of journalists? Um, is there anyone who comes to mind or can you just give

us your perspective on that? I'll start only because I recently lost one of my mentors, Fred Smith. Um, my

first 18 years um my first 18 years at FedEx. I joined on my 18th I mean I joined on

my 25th birthday in in 1978 when FedEx was just four years old, five years old.

And uh so really the first big figure that I was associated with was Fred. And

the good news is um I was able to start writing for him, writing speeches for

him uh when I was about 27. I think I'd been there for a year or two. And

learned so much from him. But one of the things that that he asked me to do was to start sitting in the senior

management meetings and taking notes. And then I would trans I would, you know, take those notes, skinny them

down, give them to him, he would edit them heavily usually and then send them around to the to the to the senior

management team. And it was like getting an MBA. Um, you know, just sitting there, you know, here I am in my 20s

listening, watching, and here's this company that's going from being truly an unknown company. I didn't I'd never

heard of FedEx. I lived in Memphis, and they had just a few planes, a few

people. My employee number was one of the first 10,000. I was employee number 9295. Today, I just learned today that

recently when at Fred's memorial service, they had employee number 6 million stand up and give a testimonial.

That's how many people they've hired over over the 50 years. At any rate, Fred was a tremendous

teacher and and leader. And um but the thing that made him special was he really he he he focused on the personal

side of people. And just as an example, when I he turned 80 last August, a year ago, August, and I sent him a note, you

know, I hadn't talked to him in a while, and just said, "Happy 80th birthday, etc." And he he sent me a note back, and

he remembered my wife's name. She also had worked at FedEx and and she he knew her, and he remembered my kids' names.

And this is a guy, you know, I hadn't seen in a long time. I had been hadn't been at FedEx for 30 years. So, I think

he was one of the great teachers early in my career.

Well, Tom, I've had I mean I've um unlike Tom who's had some consistency in

his employment over the years, mine's a bit uh more checkered. So, I've had a

few people along the way. Um Jack Steel was my first city editor,

my first newspaper job, and Jack told me uh I said, "So, why are you here?" And I

mumbled something about Woodward Bernstein, you know, breastfeeding, da

da da. And he he looked at me and he said, ' Kid, you'd be better off selling condoms doortodoor. You'd make more

money and you need a better class of people. Um, and he was sort of right.

Um, but it gave me a feel for the fact that, you know, newspaper work is going to be pretty gritty, and it is. It

remains that way today. and you you really have to

want to do it. Um, you have to have some real guts. Uh, you have to stand up to

people. You have to ask tough questions if if you're really going to make it work. Um, and you have to have good

editors, which for me is one of the things I worry about today. Um,

it's it's great to have citizen journalists. It's great to have independent journalists right now.

They're doing a great job. I think things like the Midas Touch, those guys

are filling a slot that corporate media has sort of backed away from unfortunately.

But the lack of having an editorial presence that really because an editor

is much more than is your comma in the right place. Um I mean an editor is

about have you thought through this? Have you asked this question? Have you have you gone to you know really make

you making you work the story? And I think you guys know by the time we were

working together that's what I did the most. I mean people would create

Yeah. And my job was to say, you know, all right, I'm looking at

this. Here's my questions and where do where are we going with this and how does this fit with the strategy we have

for whatever the issue might be. Um, so I think that that really stuck with me

for a long time um and and does today. It's really that editorial presence I

think is really important. Um, and for younger people like Caroline, like my

daughter Mary who are so in Mary's case in her mid30s,

um, dealing with AI is going to be the next big challenge for them

and how do you position yourself as a human being, right? the value you bring to that

information chain as opposed to what AI is going to bring to it which meaning AI when it gets good

enough we'll know where the comma goes but you know a lot of writing is going to

end up with that AI bot and you have to be

we have to be better at saying that editorial presence needs to sit over top of it.

Yeah. Yeah. the AI. I mean, I I don't Jeff, are there any podcasts we do when

AI doesn't come up? I mean, no, not at all. And and Tom Matia,

you're you're right. AI has to be supervised by a human before AI starts

to supervise itself and makes everybody irrelevant. So, yeah, I'm I'm telling my students at the

College of Charleston that um they need to learn it. And you know, there have been some professors who kind of shy

away from it or say, "Don't use it." They're worried about plagiarism. I don't say that at all. I say, "Look, if

you don't know how to use it, you're not going to get hired when you when you graduate. You know, you've got" I said,

"But if you use it to think for you, you won't stay hired because if you use it as a as a crutch, you you won't be able

to walk." And so, what I tell them is use it and then tell me how you've used it and how you've made it better. How

you've taken how you've taken what it told you and then made that even even better. And um I think more and more

professors are starting to do that. They're starting to say, "Use it wisely, but use it because everybody else is

going to be using." I just saw just this morning today I saw a page society did a

a program on on AI and specifically on how it's affecting uh generative uh

optimization and um the the thing that came out of it which relates to Tom

Matia's point about journalism journalism is still one of the most uh trusted places that AI turns for

citation but here's the problem journalism itself is eroding both at the local level and at the national level

and so if AI is depending on journalism to feed its content then where's that

coming from and how reliable is that is that journalism so it's a we are in a very different time now and I think u

you're right Tom it's going to only continue to change rapidly and and Tom there's this I mean now

polling there's like there's a whole you you probably know this just a whole nent

industry now around synthetic polling where where you're you know you're you're using synthetic agents acting as

as the pole takers um because it's quicker easier. You

know, a lot of data points create an agent and you multiply those agents and then you pull those agents and things

can be done really quickly, but you're you're

you're getting an answer that I would that at least I would question. Um, and

so it's what is the human element that that manages that? and and getting back to journalism and public relations, it's

understand AI, but understand how to manage AI and use AI. Um,

because otherwise you won't have a job. I mean, AI is going to start writing. It's going to be tough entry level, I

think, or entry level becomes a different animal than it's been traditionally.

Um, because you can do, you don't need researchers that much anymore. You need

one person with a good, you know, a good bot to do your research, but you need

that person who can sort through that. I think it also gets back to authenticity and whether it's the

authenticity of brands. You know, I think people are questioning how believable, how credible uh brands and

services are that are being sold by by companies. And AI doesn't change that. I mean, if you a I can say all it wants to

say, but if you use a product or service and it doesn't work, you know, if your insurance company doesn't honor its claim or if your you know, if your car

company doesn't stand behind its it it's its uh product, then you've still got a problem. And so, I think it probably is

more important to be authentic in what you provide to consumers than maybe it's ever been.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. No question. Um, by the way, Tom Martin,

I I uh I'm actually sitting here in a like a faculty meeting room at the

University of North Texas where I teach. Um, and uh, this came up. AI literally

just came up in my morning lecture and I and I do the same thing you do. You know, embrace it. Embrace it for all

it's worth, right? Don't use it as a crutch. I I like the way you put that, but embrace it, right? Um, I think

that's the only way to do it. I really do. I tell students, I said, if you're using

AI to think for you, where that's going to fail you is when you're in your first big job interview and you know, they ask

you a tough question and you can't pull out your phone and say, "Well, wait just a second. I'll give you an answer in a minute." You know, you can't go to Chad

GPT when you're on the spot. So, and I I think it's it's more than embrace. You have to learn to manage it.

I mean, it's it's going to be it's you or the bot, buddy. It's you or the bot.

Are you going to manage the bot or is the bot going to manage you? Because that bot's going to keep getting smarter

every day. So, are you going to keep getting smarter? And are you going to be able to bring added value to what the

bot produces? I mean, that's the race. And you know what?

No, go ahead. Sorry. No, I was going to say, so it's to me it's more than embracing it. It's understanding that that's the that's the

reality you live in. Now, how do you get a leg up on that?

I you know what? I am really glad recording this, Jeff, for a variety of reasons. Okay,

is I'm going to use that line, Tom. I I I mean, I'll go back and look at the

recording. You were the bot, basically. So, I really really um let let me ask another question. I

love the Fred Smith story, Tom Martin. Uh I've encountered at least

electronically uh lots of folks in the last few weeks and months who feel very similar about

Fred Smith. Um and uh it's all positive and um really heartwarming to see. And

so I guess my question is what what makes a good mentor?

I mean, you you take the Fred Smith case and the fact that he knew still know knows your wife's name and your kids'

names and stuff like that brought you into the executive meeting. Is that is does it start with that just

giving you a chance to get exposed to certain things um being good at at at

the personal side of thing? What makes a really good mentor? I mean, I think one of the big we've

actually done research on this um at the Martin Center. you know, the Martin Center, which I founded back in 2023,

that's our sole focus is on sort of the the science behind mentoring and mentorship and what makes good mentors

and good mentoring relationships. And one of the biggest things is just is is empathy. You know, it's really putting

yourself in the shoes of the person that you're that you're mentoring. And to some degree it works both ways because I

think a good mentee also tries to put him or herself in the shoes of the person mentoring them and realize they

have something to offer that person as well. But but getting you know in in Fred's case he was never afraid to give

credit to others. And I'll give you just one one example. One of my one of the biggest moments of my young career was

when I wrote a speech for him that he was giving in London and he let me come with him. I flew, we flew on the

Concord, which I got to, you know, do that, which was cool. We stayed at the Doorchester Hotel, which was also cool

for a kid from Memphis, Tennessee, who'd never been to London, you know. Um, but

at the end of the of the speech, there was a dinner and it was a very formal dinner with a bunch of captains of

industry all sitting around the table. And at the end of the dinner, they passed around the port, you know, and the guy was explaining to me the port

goes this way and all this sort of thing. Um, but at the very end of it, they gave a toast to Fred and Fred said,

"I want to turn that around." He said, "I want to let's raise our glass to Tom Martin because he put this presentation

together and did a great job. Let's, you know, hear here and everybody raised their glasses." Well, trust me, that was

many years ago and I'll never forget it. And and that's just an example of what I think good mentors do is they don't

steal the limelight, they share it. And and then Fred was excellent at doing that. Yeah. I you know so as far as like CEOs

I worked for who who were that way. Uh Neville Lisdell at at Coca-Cola was very

much that way and um he had a similar situation. He he won the annual award at

the Clinton Global Initiative when that was up and running. Um and they

presented him the the award and he stopped and called me up on the stage uh

and said this is really the guy who you know got me to move in this

direction and got us to where we wanted to go. So and uh I agree with Tom. It's

something I've carried with me all the time. It's if you're if you're the if

you're a leader, you're when things go right, it's all your people. When things

go wrong, it stops with you. That's that's just the way it has to be.

And if you do that, your people trust you and believe in you and are willing to take risks that they won't take if

you're, you know, willing to leave them by the side of the road. Um, and that

then engenders, you know, some really good work, I think, because you need some risk takers. Um, and you and you

need to be there to sort of manage that risk, but you want to you want to grow that and you want to understand that

you're never the smartest person in the room. You don't want to be. The worst place is to be in a room full of people

where you are the smartest person. you really want to be in a room full of people where you're not and and where

you're not necessarily the most important person. Um I think those are so that mentoring is important and and

Tom you hit on a really the most important point which is you

you always learn both sides learn and if you to be a good mentor you have you

have to be open to learning from your mentee because you will

I mean I taught a class I taught a class in um trans media storytelling.

Um, and I I stopped teaching it because the platforms got so it was how do you

tell unified stories across multiple platforms and there were just more

platforms popping up. I just got tired of chasing the platforms. But I learned more I learned so for me what I taught

my students I think was the idea of what a story is. What's an arc? How does it

how do you how do you use a story to make your point? How do you use a story to protect to further your brand or

whatever? But how do but a story is important because people remember stories. So I taught them the idea of a

story, but they taught me all about how the platforms can be used to then tell

those stories. You know, one of the things one of the things we're trying to to help our our

students and and the the students are in the Martin Scholars program who each are assigned a mentor. You know, one of the

things we try to to impress upon them is mentoring comes in a lot of different

flavors. Uh the president of the college, Andrew Shu, president of the college of Charleston, he was on I do a

podcast too. My podcast is on mentoring. No surprise. And and he was the first guest of that on that podcast. and he

talked about two of the mentors in his life were just co-workers who took an interest in him. One suggested he

consider going into into management and he did and and liked it and the other one when he got into the academic side

suggested he look into being a dean and he did and ultimately became a provost and now he's a president of a college

and he said without those two people in his life neither of whom were assigned to him or formal formal mentoring

programs he wouldn't be president of the college of Charleston. So I think looking, you know, finding mentors in in

a lot of different play because they can be a parent or a friend or a friend of a friend or whatever, but just finding

people who know a little more than you might or about a certain subject and can help you, I think is the key. Uh Tom, I

heard one of the people, one of the guests on my podcast was a woman who said, u if you think you're the smartest

person in the room, you need to find another room. Exactly. That's totally to your point. It's it's

you know you want to be around people who are smarter than you are because that's how you learn. Exactly.

No question. Um let's flip it. What makes a good mentee? I mean just being

open to learning. um you know well we we've done a lot of research on

that as I say and we we actually did a survey of there have been 111 Martin scholar graduates which I'm very very

obviously very proud of and uh there are 12 in the current class and we did a we did a survey of all 111 graduates and

got a good response rate from all of them and you know one of the thing a couple things emerged from that

one is yes they learned a lot about the breadth of the profession which they didn't know coming in you know College

colleges are wonderful but they don't always teach a lot about what you do when you get your degree in the real

world how how the real world really works. So the program certainly helped them in that in that way. But the other

thing was was unexpected. They said what they got most from the program was being

lifted up uh by their colleagues by their by their fellow Martin scholars. That that's what you know that's what

really stuck with them is that they finally were in a group of people where they weren't trying to beat the other person. they were trying to help the

other person get better and and that person was trying to help them get better. So, I think part of being a a

good mentee is just realizing that you're that you have the ability to help other people. Uh but the other thing

that we found is that it's really more on the mentee to pursue that mentoring

relationship than it is on the mentor. Mentors are busy people generally and mentees have to be the one saying,

"Hey, could we have a a a conversation or or let me share this with you or I just got a good grade on the paper. I'd

like to show it to you or whatever." So, the menty has to be the one kind of driving the train a little bit and that

can be uncomfortable for especially for a college student. They learn how to do that.

But that's great. Then if and if once you're once you're in a work environment

that that ability to [Music]

walk in, you know, tug on somebody's uh shirt tail uh can

be even more daunting. Um because you know, especially if you're in a

corporate environment where everyone is working their way up a ladder. Um whether you like it or not, everyone's

working their way up the ladder. Um and so there there is compet there is

some competition for that next good job. Um

I I you have to be able to and that's where I think to Tom's point the mentee

relationship among peers becomes so important and critical if you can make it work.

um you know my sort of MBA experience came with 10 years at IBM and at the

time I was there in the 80s it was still the you know biggest best you know

computer company around um but it was also huge it was big and that the

communications function just at corporate headquarters was like 350

people I mean pretty pretty significant. Yeah. Um

and and it was very hierarchical and very tracked and if you weren't

switching jobs every 18 months, you were falling behind. Um so all of us knew that routine. Um

but all of us knew almost all of us understood we couldn't

get through it alone. Um, and we were all of a sort of a same

age group. Um, and that ability to be together, to socialize together, to see

each other outside of the office, to talk about challenges because we we had

the same the thing I love about communications is the the toolkit is the toolkit.

You can take it any place. You can go to any industry. I mean, I'm I'm a great example of that. you can you can go

anywhere with it. Um so we all had that toolkit but we were

doing different things. We were at different phases of our careers and so to learn from each other how you're

applying it doing environmental questions versus how you're doing it

doing product launches versus how you're doing it on reputational work. Um,

that's where we all learned. I think that I think Tom is right that that peer-to-peer and it's easier to talk to

a peer. Um, and then if you're lucky and you find a manager or two who enjoys the

idea of because I think that's part of it as well. Some people enjoy mentoring.

I you know you like helping people you don't I don't want to manage them. I like so like the senior person who

doesn't want to manage is often a great mentor.

No, I I think Tom, you know, one of the things when I joined EDS after a pretty full career, you know, I knew how to

write a press release. I knew how to come up with a strategy. I knew how to put things into action, but I was a

doer. I wasn't a leader at that point. And I think one of the most important things you did for me was you taught me

how to have some executive presence and that you're not going to be respected unless people see you as being on equal

footing. Um and I I'll never forget you know some advice you gave me. I would go into meetings with you know other

higherups within EDS people executives and uh I'd go in armed

with notebooks. all these notebooks I'd carry into the room and I'd slug them down in front of everybody and take them

through and all all of a sudden I think I was viewed as kind of like this scribe

um you know carrying the info where you advise me she goes you go no no no no

you get someone who works for you to take all those things down put them at the seats and then you walk in with your

little folder that's it and you sit down and here let's get started now I think you know the one thing that I could

always say about Tom Tia was executive presence. That's one of your true

strengths. Oh, no. Sees you as not being confident and I think that confidence and if you can get

people to feel that confidence in themselves is huge. So, thank you for that.

That is You're welcome. Never be never be a notetaker. My

come to come to the table with a point of view or don't come to the table. That's right. But it's got to be a point

of view that's informed. True. Now, one of one of the things that it's

funny that you that you say that mention that because one of the things I really worry about are the number of students

who are beginning their their positions either remotely or in a hybrid situation. And you I think one of the of

the many bad things that CO did is it is it really took away a lot of the

in-person uh office. It's it's changing now. people are going back to the office more and more but still it's not quite

like it was you know in 2019 and I think what that where that especially hurts uh

younger people is they don't have the opportunity just to observe just to see how are people

dressed how do they talk how do they do they carry notebooks into meetings or do they come in right you know and I think that observational

opportunity I tell my my students who are working remotely or who begin working remotely I

said look you've got to try to replicate some of the things that you would get for example get on Zooms 10 minutes early and whoever's on there just ask

just have a chat with them you know or schedule nonwork-related meetings with people just to say hey I

heard that you uh like fly fishing tell me more about where I could go to do some fly fishing or whatever. So, I

think that's something that people are going to have to learn how to do better is just how to we we try to teach our

students how to network. And that's something that's so foreign to to a college student. Uh just and yet we all

know that networking has as much to do with success as being knowledgeable. It it really it may be even more important.

Um what you know is important, but who you know and how you get along with people is also very important.

Yeah. Yeah. I I u I'm glad that I don't have to run the race that your students

and graduates are running. It's um I recognize it's a different space. Um I

see it I see it in my own kids. I see it, you know, I did um an encore program

at the University of Texas called Tower Fellows. Um, so I spent two years back

on campus going to classes with 20-year-olds. Um,

and they were and it was I started before CO COVID hit and we

went online and as I ended we were coming back out of COVID and starting to do some stuff

in person and the difference in the context of the relationship I had with

the students and my my fellow students uh was dramatically different between the two. um and finding ways to do

things in person. Uh my daughter Mary's The other thing is

there is so much gig work today. There is so much Yeah.

All three of my kids are are gigging that no one has no one has a contract.

No one has a ongoing business relationship with everyone. Everything is a gig. Everything everything is um

you know a a a a contract as a contractor not as an employee. Um

it's just really interesting to watch. My my youngest son same way. My youngest

son is is a communicator and he worked for a two-year contract with Autodesk and he's on another contract right now.

So you're right that's Yeah. It's really a combination of remote work or hybrid

work plus contract work. You know, the back in the good old days, as we say. Um, you know, you went into companies,

you got benefits, you got, you know, full employment, you got nice perks. You may not have had the the candy machine

and all that they have now in so many workplaces, but you had better stuff, you know, like pensions and that sort of

thing. Well, you know, we're not going to bring that back, but I think it it it's it's up to employers to try to

establish some sense of, you know, we're doing something for you to to reestablish some sense of a compact

between employer and employee um in whatever way you can because I think

that's that's missing right now in many workplaces. Yeah. I I I think it's I I think it's a

a a tough situation to go into.

Mary got her um MA at Colombia.

Um again, happened during COVID, so a lot of it was online. Um

but we were living in New York at the time and we could have her cohort over

so that they could so they could spend physical time together. Um, and I and I

and I I've ended up, you know, still talking to a couple of them as they go

through their career stuff. And um, having that connections really paid off

for all of them. Mary's, if I look at my the three

um, Mary really uses, to your point about networking, Tom, um, so she

graduated from Welssley, there's a great Welssley network. She uses it all the time. She's now started to use her

Colombia graduate network a lot. Um, our youngest Aurora went to Yale.

You know, she doesn't want to do nothing with Yale, which is a which is a shame because

she's a she's a writer and that that community would be wonderful for her.

But it's but you know so Mary is able to progress and answer almost any question

using her networks or at least get a good amount of information using her networks while Aurora just has to sort

of plug along on her on her own. Um and it's harder. So yeah, getting getting

that network and using it is important. Yeah. No, really good point. I mean, so

here's here's one that comes to mind. So you've you've got you're right, Tom Martin. I mean,

uh, all these people, especially younger people working remotely,

full remote or maybe partially remote, the gig economy, Tom Matia, to your

point, all this, you know, people are kind of all over the place. um what can companies do to facilitate

an environment of mentoring within that larger context. Right? So

for by way of example, I'm a new I was an adjunct last year here at but I'm now

full-time. Um and they have assigned me a mentor uh a a colleague a fellow a

peer a colleague a fellow uh advertising and brand strategy professor and he's my

peer and he calls me to check up on me and we meet I mean it it you know we just started school so um but he's

taking it seriously and and so am I and I find it kind of nice you know to have

a colleague I can turn to right that's just one example but I mean is it

important for companies to facilitate mentoring by setting up formal programs and things like that.

I I think it is and I think I mean the what you just mentioned is a great example of there has to be an

intentionality about it. And now my my uh youngest son who works remotely, one

of the things that that the foundation he works for does is they bring him into uh into their office once a month to

interact with the people in real time. it's just for a day, but they pay his way there and pay his way back and and

all that. That's intentionality. You know, it's saying we're going to not just treat you like someone who, you

know, is is just purely a contract person. We're going to we're going to, you know, treat you like family as much as we can. And I think having

intentional programs like a like a mentoring program uh is also a good way of doing that. It's it may not be

practical in every situation, but I think the more companies can focus on that kind of thing, uh the better. Yeah,

it it's you know it as long if it can provide the platform that

encourages people to do it, I think it's important. You don't want it to be overly structured. It sounds like yours

isn't it and and yeah, you know, I think that's a good thing. And when after I joined Coca-C So the

other thing is after I HR can help um if you're in a situation with HR um but

after I joined Coca-Cola I was there about 6 months and the head of HR who got to be a friend said I think it's

time we do a 360 evaluation. I said well I just got here and things are going fine. I got it wrong. Don't worry I'm

fine. No, no, no. It's it's probably a good idea. I said no no no my people

love me. Everything's okay. Hey, I'm getting along with the other. No, no, no. Let's do a 360.

Um, so we did and I found out that my people

um in in my organization was happy to have me, but they thought that I was

removed and I wasn't listening enough to them and I wasn't taking their guidance. And that was fair because, you know, you

parachute into a new place on your own. you know, you know who you can trust,

you and you have to build the trust with others. It's always tough. Um, but HR

having that process and saying, "Let's go through it," then set up a situation

where I could turn around and say, "Oh, I need to stop a minute. I need to

listen." And so then we started a process of

when I had to do my evaluations going down, I'd do my evaluation and a

week later my folks would come back and evaluate me and I had to do it clearly first so they

weren't at any risk and then come back and be honest with me and their feedback to me. And that set

up a situation where mentoring really really just blossomed because we were

both listening to each other and I was certainly learning from them. Um and it

it really created a great working environment. So doing something like that I think can really be effective.

You said oh go ahead Jeff. Sorry. Oh sorry Tom. That was a great word you threw out there Tom. listening. Um, I

can remember and I remember where you were at this point in time. You were with your family down on the Rio Grand

when we had the change of control of CEOs at EDS and um, you know, I worked

throughout the night. By the time you called again, you were like a 100 miles west of Abolene,

but in the morning I met Mike Jordan for the first time, who was the polar opposite of our former CEO. Mike was

intellectual, so well spoken, very quiet, but very thoughtful. And you

know, I kind of made the mistake of kind of going into this thinking, okay, he's just going to be like his predecessor.

So, let me assemble my 50 books of info and brief him on every single person he

may talk to and blah blah blah. And he came in. I'm sitting there at a conference table with him. And Tom, you

remember Mike was very softspoken. um he you knew when he wanted something.

Um but I'm I'm going through things. He's kind of shaking his head and got to the end. I said, "Yeah, Mike, does that

help you?" He goes, "Yeah, but but Jeff, you know, there's a reason why God gave

us two ears and one mouth." And I'll never I'll never forget that

advice. I've held that with me the whole time because I, you know, I think that really tries to I use it to guide me on

how I interact with others. Um, and u, but you have to adjust to different

styles and that's something I've learned years and certainly others in my life like like you Tom in terms of working

with different executives. There are different ways to work with different people and you've certainly taught me that and

we're all human beings. Tom, I uh I interrupted you. So, what were you I was just going to I was just going to

pick up on what John said earlier about the fact that his mentor was taking it seriously. And I think that's the other

key to it. You you've got there are many mentoring programs that fail because it's just lip service. It's just I'm

going to have lunch with you a couple of times and then I'll forget I'm being your mentor and you'll forget it and we'll just move on. And but I think if

people take it seriously and and really look, you know, look at it as something that can be helpful on both on both

ends, then it it tends to work. But it but it has to be there has to be a intentionality both at the

organizational level and at the individual level for it to for it to really be successful. Yeah. It guys, you remember I so EDS got

to be such a difficult place to to communicate

in. Um, and we had, you know, you you have a change in leadership. You got all

new leaders coming in on the top. Um, and you know, Dick and and Don Yuzi were

not not big, warm, cuddly, friendly,

you know, let's bring all our people together kind of leaders. Um,

and we had we were stuck with like 325,000 people, most of whom had not

started their careers in EDS, most of whom had been purchased as EDS got a

contract, right? And we brought them in and they were still sitting in their same desk in their same old job working

for a different company who they didn't even know. Um and we did that one big

communications program where we did storytelling and really it was about we

got everybody not everybody but we got many many people in the company to start

telling their stories about themselves and their company and I think that

really changed the dynamic inside the way we all felt about each

other and the way the business moved forward. Um, and it allowed it allowed

because people listened to other people's stories. People enjoyed telling their story. It was important to them

and other people enjoyed hearing it to understand how they fit together. Um, I

think that's really important, Tom, you know, from a cultural perspective in communications. By doing that storytellers program, we told all those

people, all our colleagues out there that, hey, what do you think about the company matters? We'd love to get your

perspective. put it on a 3x5 card and send it into us. And that's going to give us a much richer view of how people

within the business feel, not from the top, but from the middle and the bottom and

and whomever. And and we utilize that. But I I thought that was a fantastic program.

I've got I've got another another one. I asked about mentees earlier and and Jeff

I we should probably be conscious of time here as well and I want to give um both Toms a chance

to kind of close out with any comments that um you guys would like to make but before we get there maybe just one last

question which is is it a good thing or not if a company

somehow incentivizes people to get a mentor? for

can you incentivize people to seek out to to seek out being a mentee or is that

just weird? In other words, hey, we incentivize incentivize how, John?

I don't know. Um I I don't know if it's penalized them if they don't do it, but

maybe there's a reward if I don't know. it just to just as a way

to push the concept of mentoring further for people especially people who might

be too shy to approach somebody. I mean I my opinion would be it's better

to incentivize people to become mentors and then and then enable the mentee to

be persistent in trying to make the relationship work. In other words, I think if you had a bunch of people in a

company running around trying to find mentors because they want to get a reward of some type, I think that could be a little bit strange. But but I think

if you say, "Our organization wants to foster mentoring and so those of you in

leadership positions, we're going to ask you to actively and and and

enthusiastically participate in this. And we're going to once we structure it, we're going to train the mentees." One

of the things we learned at the college is that we you mention some training. So, we actually do a oneh hour, one

credit hour express course, six week course in just how to be a mentee. And

it's it's everything from etiquette type stuff. How do how do I how do I go to a reception and hold a plate of food and

still mingle and mix with people or, you know, should I what do I do with a business card or do people have business

cards anymore? So, we do some training on how to be a good mentee. That helps them. The mentors don't need train

training but they just need to to be uh made aware of of what the needs are of

mentees and and then to you know in our case they're volunteering to do it but I think in an organization there there

could be some structural encouragement to you know to do that.

I love I love it. Tom is uh you know more experienced doing it than

I do. I I I would just say that I agree that that the if there's any perk to it,

it's to help people become mentors. Um and not necessarily only management.

As I said, I think some of the best mentors are people who don't want to

manage but do but do want to develop. Mhm. Um and so people who like to develop,

it's it's something they can do. It's an extra um an extra piece for them. And and for

mentees, it's like if you have the if you have the desire to get ahead, you're going to you're

going to want to find a mentor. Um if that desire is strong enough, you'll I I

think you go out and find him. and knowing that there's

there's a there's a program there where I can tap in and understand how to how

to use the the resource. Um if if I want to do it, I'll go find it. I think

that's good. So in it's not so much it's not so much a benefit. Well, it's a benefit you're providing rather than uh

uh an incentive. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree with that. Yeah. I think having

a great mentoring relationship, even if you're on the mentor side, can make your

performance better. Um, I know with our team at EDS, Tom, after you left to go

to Coca-Cola, I sat down with all the direct reports individually and said, you know, you're really good at what you

do, but is this what you want to be doing going on from here? You know, would you like to do some internal

communications? Would you like to do online stuff or whatever? and I tried to just kind of create this dialogue where

they could see I cared about where they're going in their careers and I think in the end that makes them want to

work harder for you and uh and I always felt that way about you Tommy. You were certainly um gave me a lot of different

opportunities that I might not have been given. So anyway, thank you. Well, why don't we why don't we go uh to

the two Toms, Jeff, and and offer them an opportunity to close out with any comments they might have. What do you

think? I think that's a great idea focusing on mentoring.

Um it's a it is a great thing to have at

the core of any organization be it a business or a nonprofit or a

charity or um you know or your family.

Um, if it's part of the way you go about

life, um, it makes life so tremendously fulfilling.

um to know that you've helped someone,

to know that your advice has been useful.

Um really is um a a a great human benefit

to have. Um and on the other side, to

know that there are people in the world who wanted to take the time

to help you move yourself along life's path

um is also very fulfilling and very uh um

it gives you hope. It gives you hope for the future which is something we all need these days.

Yes, it is. Um so I you know I think both sides of

mentoring are so very very important for that. It helps

it helps us all be better human beings. Um it helps our organizations progress.

Uh it makes our organizations healthier. um it it it it more connected more

understanding of the direction we're all going in or should be going in or want to be going in. So I think it's it's a

critical part that sits in the center of a healthy thriving organization.

Yeah, I I agree with that and I I appreciate the fact that you're devoting this episode of your uh podcast to

mentoring because I do think it's a very important subject. I'll just share one story. Um more than 40 years ago, I was

matched with a young man who at that time was 12 years old and his name was Robert Wilson and I was matched with him

in the Big Brothers program. Well, that program was supposed to end when he was 17, but we just kind of kept going. Um,

I went to all of his graduations from from high school, from college, from law school. Uh, he was an usher when I

married my wife, Wanda, and I was his best man when he got married a few years later. Um, his daughters call me Grandpa

Tom. Um, we're still very, very close. He's like a third son. And did I expect

all that to happen more than 40 years ago when we were first matched? Of course not. But I think he and I have

both gotten so much out of that that we wouldn't have had otherwise. And that is just one example of what mentoring can

be. But I've devoted the last 18 years of my life at the college to to mentoring essentially. And it's been the

most rewarding chapter of my whole career. So, you know, it it people I

don't think fully realize until they do it just how rewarding those kind of relationships can be for both parties.

Right. And so I would just encourage anybody listening to your podcast to jump in the pool and take a stab at

being a mentor. I think you'll find that it's extremely rewarding and and can give you a a dimension to your life that

you didn't even know was there. So keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. And and you can do it from a

distance. I mean, we we've mentored a group of students in Africa for years

and many of them now are land rights lawyers in Tanzania and Uganda and um we

communicate with them regularly. You can you can do it from afar as well as close

in. Wow. Great advice, Jeff. What do we even say to that? I

mean, I I just I got nothing. I got nothing. No, I I think this has been really

great, really helpful, Tom Martin, Tom Matia, you know, the wisdom that you guys have shown and and the examples

you've set really powerful. So, um um it just kind of um makes makes me feel even

better, John, that we put together this episode on this subject because I think it's really really important right now,

especially with the state of the world, the state of the free press, you know, where things go from here. We have to

make sure that we've got great examples out there that people can model themselves after. Um that can can keep

the free press moving along like it has been. It's certainly a huge part of uh of society. Um

well, this is I agree with that. This is our 20th podcast, Jeff, and I would argue that it may be our best. And you

want to know why? because you and I have spoken the least of other podcasts. And

you know what? That's good thing when you've got guys like this to turn to to

impart their wisdom and um passion for this incredibly important topic. I mean,

the the the driving force for this was back to school, you know, the timing hook. And so, we wanted to do something

education related, even though this goes beyond education. Um, but uh I I

actually have what Jeff and I alternate. One of us does a LinkedIn executive thought piece every month, first week of

the month. Mine is due to come out tomorrow. Uh, and the headline is

something along the lines of summer is over, but uh that but it's but mentoring

is always in season or something like that. and and it it sounds like it is kind of a way of life, a way of being, a

way of thinking, right? Being helpful to others and being open to how others can

be helpful to you. And I love your word fulfilling, Tom Matia, on both ends of that spectrum. So, I just can't thank

you both enough individually and collectively for spending the time with us. We really truly do look up to each

of you. Um and um we're just really excited about this conversation. Jeff,

you want to close out with our uh Yeah. What I would say is great players need great coaches. You know, Michael

Jordan wouldn't have done well without having Phil Jackson. Uh you need great

coaches and um uh certainly in the case you guys are great coaches and we hope

to be great coaches the people we work with. But uh thank you, thank you, thank you again for doing this. I think a lot

of people will take a lot of great learning out of this and um um I'm not

sure what to say at this point other than please uh please go to our various social network channels that we have.

We're on everything. Uh you can watch these broadcasts. Uh you can go to our website. We've got a full list of them

there. But um thank you again uh for uh spending the day doing this with us and

um you'll get a chance to see it online very soon. Well, thanks Jeff. Thanks John and Tom.

Always good to see you. Tom, it's wonderful to see you. It's good to good to know we're still around.

And thanks guys. It's great seeing you guys as always. Sounds great. Thanks everybody.

Okay. Bye bye.

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