[Music] Welcome to On the Offense, everybody,
where we typically take a topic of note, often some uh something that's in the
news, and uh digest it through the lens of marketing andor communications. Uh
believe it or not, this is episode Jeff number 23. Yes, 23.
23 meaning big number. Yeah, big number. Uh and we do these twice a month. So that means we've been
at this for about a year, which is beyond crazy. Um, and uh, every third
episode or so, we like to invite a guest uh, or two or three. We've done one
guest, we've done two. I think we had a panel of three guests. So, a panel of five, including We did. That was a robust broadcast.
Yeah. Um, that was a robust broadcast. And this is one of those times. Look at that
smiling face. So I am really really excited about today's guest. She is uh
not only an ex-colague of mine from Hillan Nolton back in my agency days and
and Jeff is exh uh but she is also a highly decorated
expert in the area of media relations having experienced a long and exciting
career in the agency biz. So Lisa Kovitz, welcome, welcome, welcome. The
pride of aing New York. That's me. Tell us about yourself. Uh, and then we
can get into the topic at hand. Yes. Well, John and Jeff, very nice to
have our H&K reunion over Zoom. Who even would have imagined that when we were working together in the 80s? Um so yeah
so I um I worked in uh at all agencies
so all the big ones H&K Buren Marstellar which is now just Buren and Edelman and
then a few small ones in between and the entire time I did it my job was to take
oh and I was a book publicist too that's how I started is to take something that
the client cared about the author cared about the company cared about and make it famous by getting it press coverage.
And of course, things have changed a whole lot. And uh this medium we're on
didn't exist until sometime, I think in the early 2000s. Um I am reminded that Adam Curry of MTV
fame, a VJ, was the first person to do a quote unquote podcast.
Oh, really? That's correct. Um, I might be wrong on some of the history on that, but he
calls himself the podfather. So, so, so, and he, um, you know, it was, I
think, the certainly the Apple app did not exist until much later on. And as we
were talking about in the green room is that Mark Marin's podcast WTF started in
2009 and he just concluded this past Monday. And I remember reading about it
in the New York Times and then like I had a tiny little iPod and I had to take
a cord, put it in that, put it in my computer and manually sync every episode. And then they somebody figured
out that they should put it on the iPhone and that's when we went from it being this thing that nobody understood
to now everybody has a podcast including Barack Obama who was Mark Marin's last
guest podcast with Bruce Springsteen. So anyway, so that my job is um and I did I
started as um a book publicist and in fact if it paid better I probably would have stuck with it because but I no I'm
serious. I my very first job I was actually telling um somebody today I
made $8,000 a year. It was in 1981 and I worked for a very small publisher called
Stein and Day that was actually located in my hometown of Austining, New York.
And one of the books that I worked on was the sequel to Ball Four, Jim Boutton's Ball Four, if you remember
that. Right. Absolutely. and and um and at the time
Jim was also I think in between sports casting jobs and one of the important
things for him to do was to do not only sports press but to be on talk radio
because talk radio was a thing and this is 1981 and it was kind of before there
was um national talk radio show so you literally had to call radio stations all
over the country to promote books and
should I keep going because yes okay well so so the notion of a book
tour you may know this too is that the novelist Jacqueline Suzanne originated
the notion of going on the road to promote her novels and also to go on
the multiple talk shows that existed when her books were published. So MV
Griffin, it was Johnny Carson. She would go on Johnny Carson. Um, then came Phil
Donahghue, right? So that changed it. And I can tell you for a fact, the
second publisher that I worked for, getting somebody on Phil Donahghue, 50,000 copies of that book would sell
the next day because, think about it, you know, CNN had just started,
right? And so the notion of sort of you know
very schism of the media environment wasn't happening. There was, you know, the morning shows which I think the
Today's Show was on Good Morning America had just started and CBS had something maybe, you know. So, so the notion of
the book tour is not only would you do the national like late night talk shows
or Phil Donghue or M Griffin or or Mike Douglas? Mike Doug. Mike Douglas. Right. Who? Roger. Roger.
Yes. Roger Als as in the creator of Fox News was Mike Douglas's producer.
So did you So this is we're giving John and
and and and Jeff a lot of uh useless history. Um but anyway, so then you would also get on an airplane and go
from city to city and do Good Morning Detroit, Good Day Well, Good Day LA,
right? Like those shows developed um because there had to be something in between the Today Show and the soap
operas. So that's where the local talk shows happened. And then you would also
take those people to radio stations. And I am proud to say I took two different
authors to Terry Gross, now been on for over 30 years as the host of Fresh Air
on NPR. Oh, yeah. And you had to get in, we went to Philadelphia, you drove to the NPR
station, and then she just sat in there with you. She no longer sits in the she probably hasn't done it in years to sit
in the same room with you, but I remember taking two different authors there and it was just like, okay, you're
you're in Philadelphia and then it became fresh air and that is a very important place if you want to sell
books as you might imagine. Um, so yeah, so I learned, you know, so if you can like and I my theory of the
case was if you can look at a book as a product because they kind of were being sold at the time like that, right?
That's when books were book publishing was an enormous industry at that point. I could work in PR for a product. So I
went from getting paid $8,000 a year to making $16,000 a year. Um, and then when
my first PR job was a small um, agency that had some really great clients. They
had Sharp Electronics and things like that. And the and I was the microwave oven girl for Sharp because, you know,
nobody knew what a microwave oven was, John Jeff. So, somebody had to explain it. So, so that's what I did. And, um,
you know, I part of my job is to kind of keep track of the changing media landscape. So you know what worked in
1981 to sell books is not going to work in 2021 or you know or 2025 to sell
books. So now social media book talk really important right and that's but
podcasts which we're on right now um is kind of
a way for an author to reach a very large or very small niche focused
audience. I this voice is in your ears, right? Like well, I guess we're on Zoom and on
YouTube, but it started as audio only podcasts, right? And and it was
literally called podcast because of the iPod, right? So, um so what what's good for
authors and why it's important is because you're reaching a superargeted audience or a mass audience depending on
who you are, what the book's about, and it's evergreen. So if your topic
isn't a breaking news topic, you could listen to it a month from now and
nothing would have changed. You know, the book is still the book. It's you'd like it on day one like Phil Donny here
to sell 50,000 copies, but that doesn't necessarily happen. And some people, you
know, now that podcasts live mostly simultaneously audio only and on Zoom,
discovery is a lot easier on Zoom if you consider it, right? Because it's Google,
the people who invented search. So, it's a lot easier. And many people, whether
they're 15 years old or 50 years old, don't watch them. They listen to them.
They have it on in the background, you know. And I think it's if it's if your subject
matter is um parenting or health, there's a podcast for you. And books are
important because your content has been vetted by editors. I mean, unless you're
self-published and then who knows, you know, but um the the thinking is that as
it was in TV talk shows, it was a lot easier for me to book an author than
someone who's working for a brand. And it's weird, right? Because a book is
still a product, but you know, the idea of someone saying
Pepsi seven times in an interview isn't great when you could be charging Pepsi for those
right. Good point. So, doing podcast, you can sit in your house all day and do it. And you know,
people still do radio tours, which is also using Zoom, not on video, but the
audio is so much better. And that still happens for books. Um, so, you know, but it's way more
efficient than putting people on an airplane. Oh, yeah. It's it's intimate in that it's, you
know, if you have your headphones in, even if you're if it's on Zoom, it's just for you.
And if you care about the subject matter, you're gonna listen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks, Lisa, again
for coming on to our podcast. We're It's great to have you here. It's always great to have John here with me, for
sure. Um, but anyway, no, you know, we talk about media relations and PR all
the time. And if you go back to the beginning of our careers back, how many years ago? 20 more than that. God, 30,
whatever. It's a long time ago. You know, things have changed so dramatically. You know, every town had
one or two newspapers. Every town had, you know, three or four television stations. um you know there was some
news radio but and and national magazines and what have you. The
atmosphere today is entirely different that this was all pre- internet um and
you had your Friday deadlines. You had to get the stories in before 5 or whatever. So there was always kind of
like a a fence around you. You knew where the edges of the field were. Um, but with the advent of the internet and
with the popularity of things like podcasts, there's no boundaries to any of this now. And I forget what was the
what was the percentage you had, John, of the number of people who rely on podcasts and the internet to get their
news versus traditional media. It was a big number. That's the number one place where people are getting it now. Digital digital
media. Digital social media. Even social media very much so. I've got some crazy stats
here, social media, so indulge me for a second and then I'll and then I'll be quiet. Um, so in 2025,
um, approximately 584 million people worldwide are expected to listen to
podcasts and the global podcast market is projected to reach a value of $ 39.63
billion. It's incredible. uh the number of listeners by the end of 2025
um yeah there is the 584.1 million people that's just incredible and the
total podcasts I think there are going to be according to survey 4.52 million
podcasts available worldwide and 487,200
new shows launched in just the past 3 months you talk about influence that's that's
incredible and you know why I think that's one of the things we we'd love to talk to you about, Lisa. You know, why
are these so popular? And um um and I think a lot of it kind of hearkens back
to the days of old radio before TVs were in everyone's rooms. People would, you know, listen to these great radio
broadcasts as families um every week or every day and uh and then became a
tradition. Sure. probably as close as you could get to that except it's more directed. Um and
it's it's driven in large part by you know commercial interests. So um
well that's true and and and formats formats are as varied as you can come up
with right it can be long form storytelling like serial the
that podcast that came out a true crime podcast that came out I guess in the early mid 2000s
changed the conversation on podcasts again right you know because it was week
to week they didn't dump all the episodes at once And the story was developing and it was journalism that
was happening too versus Bill Simmons who was podcasting way before you know
in in sports anybody else who just their long form conversations with athletes
and actors and you name it. He he his podcast is one of my two favorites. Bill Simmons.
Yes. Yeah. And then there's like three guys t just talking to each other. No guests, right?
sometimes three girls talking to each other, no guests. And then there are some where people
just just talk with no one. They just say stuff, you know. So,
and and some of it is traditional like a talk show where there's a guest
promoting a book and then the next guest is a politician and the next guest is an
expert on drones. I don't know, you know. So, yeah. Well, there's very little price to
entry, right? I mean, you just, you know, set up your and you're off, right? And so that's how you get to these what
is it? What was that? 4.25 million, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, anyway,
one one of the ways this was drawn to my attention, too, was all the recent controversy over um Jimmy Kimmel getting
pulled from the air and the number of viewers he had every night. And same thing with Steven Colbear. And, you
know, they were topping out between like 2.5 million to 3 million a night. Um,
but if you look at Joe Rogan, his WTF, um, he's not W. No,
he's he's he's Joe Rogan. The Joe Rogan experience experience. That's correct. Yes. Goes on for three hours.
Yeah. He was topping out at 8 million. I mean, you talk about exposure. That's
just incredible. He has the he has the most listeners of any podcast.
And remember, he went to video very early on if I'm not mistaken. Right.
Right. And again, a lot easier to find,
you know, and it's not like they're doing anything. They're just dudes sitting around, you know.
Let me ask you a question, Lisa, and Jeff as well. I mean,
why are there so many podcast I mean, I guess we've kind of talked about that it's it's easy. It's clearly popular.
Um, that's I think fairly straightforward. What makes a good podcast though? Why is
Joe Rogan number one in listeners? What makes a good I mean I would think some some sense of topicality, if that's even
a word. A good sense of humor. Jeff, I know you love Conan's for example. Yes,
I do. I do. I do love. What makes a good podcast? I think it's authenticity.
Right. Like I think for Rogan, Marouin, Conan, I I can't speak to the smartless
guys and I mean they are who they are, you know, but that and I guess Amy Polers is doing quite well, too. But
yeah, and and it's they are who you know, you feel like you know them
and that's why I Well, my new favorite podcast
is called I've had it. Do you know this? No. I've h I've had it.
Two women born and raised in Oklahoma City. One was raised by a very
evangelical family and the other was raised by none.
And they are profane. They absolutely hate our
current president. They are absolutely authentic. They tell it like it is. And
the show starts off where, you know, what have you had it with? And it can be really petty or it can be something
monumental. And I saw them the video
clips on social media before the election. And then they started to like
just get into my feed more and more. And then I started to actually listen to the
podcast. I would never have found them if they hadn't had that social media presence. But they are who they are.
They are I I the amount of profanity and the special names that they have for our
current president. You would I I'm not saying here. So I think that that podcast is one of my
personal favorites. They are truly iconic on the planet. Thank you for all of your work, people.
Yeah. And and that that was Gilman, our producer, by the way. Thank you. Who is along with my other daughter.
They are the two people that introduced me to my favorite podcast number one ahead of Bill Simmons, My Favorite
Murder. Oh, that's an excellent one. That one, Lisa. Yes, I know that one. She's a comedian,
I believe. Pardon me. One of the hosts, I think, is a comedian. Oh, I I mean, Gilman
Karen Kilgar. Yes. Yes. Yes. Right. She's like She's got her own separate podcast. That's very
funny. Oh, really? They're coming to Pasadena. Yes. in in a in a month or so to do
their podcast live. Really? Okay. Wow. Well, oh yeah. So, that's another part of the
business model, you guys. Jeff, when you're asking why do it a you can make
money. Hello. Right. You know, you can with the with the ads, especially on YouTube, it's a lot pro I'm making air
quotes easier versus the um audio only ads. But the live events I've now paid
money to see the 538 podcast done live at the 92nd Street Y. I've seen I went
to the King Theater in Brooklyn to see the Pod Save America Boys live.
I went to a taping in Brooklyn at the Bell House to see um Dan Pashman do the
Sporkful, which is a very good food podcast live. And then there's merch. I
have so I have two Mark Maron t-shirts and a Cat Ranch mug.
Wow. So ads. You sell ads. We need to we need to take notes. Jeff,
this is your business model, guys. You're in the comm's business. Let's go. You know, it's incredible. And and you
know what you were talking about, John, you know what makes these people attractive? I I agree. They've got to be
authentic. Um, they've got to be um in sometime sometimes controversial, have
really edgy opinions like Joe Rogan. You never know what angle he's going to come from. Um, funny is always a good thing.
There's one now with um Jason Baitman, Will Arnett, and
Smartless. Smartless. Smartless. And Sean Hayes. Excellent. Excellent.
And uh and then you know there's a show on um TV now only Murders in the Building which is based on podcasting.
So it's a phenomenon and if you're not utilizing it or taking advantage of it I
think you're right. I've made a huge case to um at Edelman clients they want to be on
podcast. I said, you know what would be equally as effective for you rather than, you know, if if you're a brand and
you're not have an actual authentic story or an author or an expert, it's
pretty difficult, you know, to get somebody on a podcast. Um, and I say the
underwriting, like on NPR, the underwriting messages for Fresh Air or the podcast versions, right, of all
those shows, it's actually pretty affordable. And it's I if the host does the read,
then the chances of you skipping through it might not be as high. I actually paid
$5 a month to get WTF Plus where there were no ads. And now that the podcast's
over, they're like, "Well, for $3, you can have access to the archives. I'm thinking about it, you know."
Okay. So, Jeff, our homework is put together an ad sales plan.
Okay. Right. All right. That's and come up with some merch. Gellman,
I'm assigning the merch to you because you're the most creative among us. Okay. Incredible.
You like that? All right. So, Jeff, I don't I am not here to self-promote,
but we need to put some context on why Lisa was talking about books.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I heard there's this new book out called uh Julia's Angels.
I remember who who wrote that one. I've never heard of it. No, John has a new book out called
Julia's Angels. Fascinating story. And I'm I'm sure probably a lot of you I'd
hope a lot of you are aware of the old uh uh Skakel murders back in Greenwich, Connecticut. How many years ago now? 40.
50 years ago. Years ago, this month 50 years ago this month, Hallows Eve of 1975.
Very very controversial. Very Skake some of the richest people in
Greenwich, Connecticut. When all this happened, it was, you know, just shocking. and and eventually Michael
Skakel he was his conviction was overturned. Um was he a Kennedy like related to the
Kennedy cousin? Kennedy cousin. First cousin. Yeah. Not like first cousin but by marriage,
right? You that was one of the first true crime
Yeah. things, right? I mean you could sort of imagine a date line a 2020, you know.
Yeah. Prime Time Live. There there have been
uh multiple documentaries, one TV movie which was based on the first book on
this which was by Dominic Dunn. Um and that was before Michael Skakel was ever
con ever even accused at least publicly. Right. So all right. So you so Lisa you
this is your first time on this grand podcast. There is a tradition here that I like to have a prop. I like to bring
props. So, here's here's my prop. Here's my book. Uh, and yes, Jeff is right. It is called Julius Angels. Thank you,
Lisa. The subhead is Chasing One last chance at justice nearly 50 years later.
So, the the um the uh I've always been fascinated um by this murder. Um yeah,
the Kennedy angle. I mean, that's what part of why it became part of pop culture.
Documentaries, movies, countless books, websites, on and on. Um, but that's not
why I wrote the book really. Um, I mean, that's kind of been done. I mean, books have been so many books have been
written on this. What inspired me to write the book and and and I I want to be clear with those of you who are
saying, "Oh gosh, is this just about a book promotion?" We um we do want to talk about why books
specifically why podcasting is especially good for books, right? But
but the short version is that what inspired me to write this was there was a a decision by the Connecticut Supreme
Court in the year 2018. So whatever that was, you know, 38 years after the
murder, uh they um vacated Michael Skakel's conviction. He had the the case
had not resulted in a conviction for 27 years. He was convicted in 2002, served
11 years in prison, was let out in 2013 on a technicality, and then the lawyers
kind of went back and forth. And then in 2018, the Connecticut Supreme Court vacated his conviction, meaning he was
out. He was free man. Um, which uh prompted the prosecutors to appeal the
case to the United States Supreme Court. And so I looked at that in 2018. I said, "You got to be kidding me." I mean, this
is that just when you never thought a legal case and situation could become
even more off the rails and interesting, right? And so I started writing at that
point and I wrote a fictional story that is it it which is great because it enables
you to take creative license and so forth. And again, I didn't want to write there was no reason to write the eenth
book on what happened. So, I wrote a fictional story exploring all the different angles and and uh the the
protagonist is a New York Times reporter who's looking into the story. Same protagonist from my first novel, by the
way, just older. Um, and but it was but I I offer intermittent reminders between
chapters of what's happening in real life uh with the appeal to the Supreme Court, but I tell a fictional story. So,
but I, you know, I re I wanted to do some good here. I wanted to do some good. I didn't want to just, you know,
the family's been through enough. The 50-y year anniversary of this is coming up, which will very likely, I would
assume, prompt media calls. Um, but the victim, Martha Moxley, her mother had
become very famous in her own right over the over the years because she was always so happy to do interviews. You
would think if your 15year-old daughter had been murdered with a golf club in this horrific incident. Uh, the last
thing you want to do is do an interview. One would think, right? But she was always so open to doing them because she
felt like when uh somebody would do a story on the murder or her just her daughter in general, it helped keep her
daughter's memory alive. And she became a darling of the media. Um and she just
died this past Christmas Eve actually. And so the book is really a tribute. The book is a tribute to her um
for the absolute class with which she comported herself over time in the most
difficult of situations. But it's also a salute to journalists to journalism and
to journalists because the the name of the book is Julia's Angels. The angels Julia is her by the way. I've changed
all the names. Changed the names. Yeah. Um the angel the angel's part she always
called these reporters I'm talking about there was a group of them that followed the story from the beginning and they
stuck by her for year decades right she called them her angels and so that's why it's Julia's angels
it's a salute to her and it's a salute to the journalists who followed the story all these years and it's a salute
to journalism in general at a time when I believe journalism could use a little
love Right. Trust made media lower at any point in history,
right? About the point at which we could use it the most, right?
Power in check, which is one of the responsibilities of the mainstream press. So,
I felt like it was a good time to kind of uphold media in general. Well, you
know, if I was your book publicist at your publisher, um, this is what I would
think about this in a couple of ways, which is this is purely hypothetical, right?
Purely hypothetical. They are the true crime podcasts,
and I I don't listen to them enough, but I suspect there were certain ones that
possibly take guests. and the fact that yours is fiction, but the whole sort of
true crime explosion probably started with this case. I'm going to guess,
right? Wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. And I I mean, obviously, you know, the
Manson murders was and and what was helter skelter, you know, possibly, but
that was not fictional, right? You know, and and then you sort of had once upon a time in Hollywood, which was like what
if it didn't happen that way, right? So anyway, so I think the,
you know, if I was a publicist and I had access and I and the other key thing about pitching podcast as an author
because a lot of authors who self-publish or sometimes there's no big publicity department have to do some
things themselves. You have to listen. Do they take guests? What kind of guests do they take authors? You know, so
that's an important piece. So um on the true crime side, I think that's an
exercise that I would have to do if I was working on this book. The other thing I would think about is it is a
media story ultimately to your point John that the the reporters now whether they were TMZ
I mean I don't even think TMZ existed when the case first happened but these multiple turns probably people was
probably one of the big ones right on this case and maybe people at the New York Times who covered I don't
Washington Post you know maybe just say like it belongs on the podcast about
media and there's a bunch of them right you know so one is Dylan buyers and his
is very you know he's at puck there's Peter Kofka you know and they're covering the media business but you
could argue that the tabloidization of news starts with this stuff goes to OJ
and then on and on and on right and I in the timeline this was before the OJ
Simpson right murder was before 20 19 years before OJ.
But but this murder, the conviction happened right after OJ. In fact,
really? Oh, yeah. Mark Furman wrote uh the, you know, the cop from the
OJ case. He wrote Murder in Brentwood right after that, right?
But then two years later, he wrote Murder in Greenwich on based on this case. And so, so they were really kind
of on top of each other in the mid to late 90s. I So I'd argue the theme is this is what
happens in the when news becomes the tabloids
and the tabloid culture is what made our current president very famous, right?
You know the whole Marla Maples thing. So the tabloidization of news, the
emergence of things like TMZ, the emergence of that dine went from very
serious news to nothing but true crime because the audience wants it. Not quite
sure why, but from, you know, from the perspective of people who cover the media as media. And to your point,
there's less, you know, that do you know that there's seven PR people for every one journalist?
Yes. Yes. photos we have used on prior podcast that
yes I think one of the things we said was that's the sure sign of the apocalypse
absolutely no course of course of course but I think that's
to me is a theme because you know you don't get
you know and and this is you know all of the stuff that happened in Hollywood with the blue dalia and all that other
stuff Like that was sort of the first goound. But this is mass media now because the internet came in the middle
of all of this too, right? Between the end of the Moxley case or in the middle of the Moxley case and in the middle end
of the OJ case, right? So, so I think you know things just amplified and you
know on social media things that make you angry or get excited that gets
shared it has more verality. So the podcast thing, the fact that there are so many true pod true crime podcasts
means that there's an audience for it and that there are more than one podcast
about the media tells you something. Yeah. And then I think just, you know, I don't
know enough about podcasts that talk to fiction writers. John,
yeah, I was going to ask you what about non non-true crime? Why why are those good for
um Right. I mean, I think non-fiction is always going to be a lot easier because
it's Yeah, you don't have to have read the book, but the subject you might be interested
in, right? Right. like you you um and I I remember
having been a book publicist for fiction writers, unless there was a hook in the novel's plot that had larger, you know,
implications, it was it was hard and that's why book reviews
then are was very important. There are less and less book reviews happening.
You may have read this. The Associated Press has pretty much gotten rid of any book reviews. Oh, I I did not know that. Did you?
Yes. And and I believe at Vanity Fair they just got rid of all their critics. They're film critics. I think they're
book critics. Oh, man. Yeah. Remember, you know, the New York Times would do a daily book review.
Oh, yeah. Not anymore. So, it's only Sundays. I heard the Secretary of Defense is
getting rid of all of his critics now, too. So, yes, that that that's correct. That is correct. So for fiction, I think it's
this I mean in some ways is is your book set in Connecticut. It it is it's it's not called
Connecticut. Well, it is called Connecticut. It's just not not called Greenwich. I inserted Chevy at Hills,
which is the neighborhood in Los Angeles where I grew up. But any not Greenwich is is called what
it is. You'd be amazed. There are probably associated maybe with the Hartford
Current or yeah other Connecticut media there's podcasts that happen right
because that's a good point you know um and who knows you know I I
don't know but I do think even some of the reporters who followed this case they themselves may have left the Daily
News or the Post or who knows but that would be like you could say well I want
to go on with soand so from the post who covered this case. Yeah. And you know, as a as a way to like
pitch it. Uh I think that's a brilliant idea. Yeah. The guy the reporter, it's really too
bad he passed away gosh 10 years ago at this point. Um
um uh his name is escaping me. Shame on me.
But he um Len Levit Levit actually wrote his own book called
um Conviction all about the the actual conviction of Michael Skakel. Uh he um
he followed that case longer than anybody. He he's the one who actually first wrote about it uh in the early 80s
when it was cold, right? And uh he stayed on it all the way until the end.
true a true crime website that he published after he left the daily
reporting business. I think he was I want to say he was in News Day for a long time. But anyway, I wish he was still around. I
can think of some other people though that Yeah, sure. because I think that's how it would, you know, that's how you sort of make it to
your point, the angels being the journalists who didn't let the story
die, you know. So, um, and let's say you're a I'm sorry, what were
you going to say? No, no, please. Let's say you are, let's let's take a step back from books. I want to be
mindful of time as well. Let's say you're an IT services company or a software company or a consumer
package goods company, right? Why is podcasting a good promotional
channel for you, right? I mean, I is it should you should you think about starting your own podcast? And if you
do, how do you go about doing that? Right. Better to try and get your best people on others podcasts.
I think what I I currently and well and I now that I'm in business for myself,
John and Jeff, um I have a a client, Kelly Williams Yoast. is a work
transformation expert meaning she helps and started almost 30 years ago to help
companies um create high performance flexibility PS pre- pandemic right where
how people when where and how they work across places spaces and time meaning
you were in Los Angeles I was in New York if we had to work together we had to figure out when is the best time so
that you don't have to wake up at 3:00 in the morning and I don't have to stay at work until 9:00. That flexibility and
figuring out that out, that is her job. There are weirdly a lot of podcasts that
talk about the future of work, HR subject matter, and she did one
yesterday with a young man um who was in uh commercial real estate in Chicago.
He's from a family that's been in Chicago commercial real estate for over a hundred years and he's now created a
podcast to promote himself and the family's business and real estate is
related to workplace, right? Because you have to go to an if you go to an office, right? So the reason that we've had her do this
is for the transcripts and for the clips. The transcripts for podcasts are
important because we are now in the age of AI search which means the large
language models love earned media. They love it. They other than hitting the
payw wall at the New York Times. So you ask ChatGpt to get you something from the New York Times, you're not getting it because they won't let them in. But
when you get the podcast transcript, then you know when you Google Cali Williams, this podcast's going to come
up in the little AI search. The other thing that's great about the video
version, which we're doing here for a podcast, is you can make clips. And when she was on a recent podcast called the
future of work, she put clips on her LinkedIn and she tagged the show, she tagged the host and that sort of
virtuous circle of, you know, likes and audience crossover can happen.
So that's why, you know, and I've I've talked to um for a restaurant client I have I've wanted
to put him on restaurant business podcast. He's not quite ready to do it yet. He wants a little bit more growth.
But when I tell you there's like three dozen restaurant business podcasts, there are. So I think it's a little bit
of building a brand. It's kind of fueling the search engine in an organic
way, right? And then it's giving you especially if it's video content for
your social channels cuz right for this book you know and if you were to do
these things is that you'd probably want to do things video podcasts where you
can make clips and it can go on Instagram and you know and and the show the cover of the book and the whole
thing which you couldn't do on the radio. Right. Right. which is not to say that you shouldn't
do radio anymore, but but even local radio
stations, if you're an Odyssey owned station, you're every every show is a
podcast. Like every hour on WBBM in Chicago is on a podcast. And I'm
thinking, it's news. Wait a minute. Like, it happened three hours ago. Why would I do that? People do. So,
so yeah. So, I think um fiction is tricky if you find the right angle or if
I'm unaware of hundreds of fiction related podcasts. I don't know. I do know I went to Harper Collins and they
have multiple podcasts that they produce themselves and I know Scholastic Books
does one for teachers and helping like figure out lesson plans and things like that. So,
Oh, wow. Yeah. So, I don't know who your publisher is, but
you know, I would suggest if they haven't started doing their own podcast, they should.
I would agree. They are. My publisher is I Universe, which is a self-publishing company, but a humongous one. So, I I
don't know. I mean, I'll check into it, but Yes, sure. Jeff, what do you think? I mean, I am I
am learning a lot. I'm I'm taking this in as an author but also just as a pra
practitioner of integrated marketing communications, right?
Yeah. Questions, comments. Jeff, what do you think? I I can just say my head is swimming. My
swimming. This is nothing I could have ever even related to when I was younger, but now I see how powerful it is. And
also, I think people relate if you're driving on a three-hour trip in a car and listening to music or whatever,
would you rather listen to music or maybe listen to a conversation about some subject matter you're really
interested in? And I think a podcast goes more towards the second. I think people like to be included and to be
involved in provocative conver learning something. Yeah. Yeah. Learn learning something.
So, I've certainly learned a lot from this conversation. I'm going to blow you guys minds here.
Here's something that you're going to go, Lisa. Oh my god, it's like covering city hall and here's a city hall right
next to it that you have to cover. The beauty of Substack. So are you you so so
Jim Aosta formerly of CNN? Yeah. Left and has now got one of the most
successful Substacks and he basically does an interview show on his phone.
Substack and then I listen to it as a podcast. I can I have him on Substack, too, but it's too hard for me to like do
that versus just audio. I'm a very I was raised by people who loved radio, so
that's probably why. But that's another platform. There's a lot of authors on
Substack, just so you know. I've heard of it. I know of it, but I don't know much about it. I the very
fact that Jim Aosta, Derek Thompson left the Atlantic to start a Substack. This is a man who was
getting cover stories at the Atlantic and this is his home now. Molly Molly John Fast who has a politics podcast. He
left Vanity Fair and started a Substack. But but she does video with Rick Wilson
politics on Substack together. So another thing that and this is this is
why my job is never boring because I have to learn this stuff literally every
week. So well the the uh the the uh the expertise
and the passion come you know racing through my phone. Lisa
and I'm sure anybody who listens to this would agree with that. Look at that smile. Oh yeah. Yeah.
We we What's that? It's flowing through her. She's obviously energized by all this
and I am too, but it's it's a lot. It's a lot. And I hope I haven't confused your viewers.
No. Open minds. Um, we like to uh I I
think I want to be sensitive to time. I think we're getting to that point. Yeah, we're at that point. Lisa, one of
the things in addition to loving uh having a prop, um we like to close with
a couple of takeaways, helpful takeaways for a CMO or a chief communications
officer or do do you have any parting words of advice? you know, if you whether you're
uh in charge of marketing or communications for a a software company or a publishing company or a restaurant,
what are some what are a couple of ideas that you can leave them with in terms of how they can leverage?
I sure I think the mistake that many brands or companies do is they keep
things in silos. So the comm's people are here
and the people in charge of social media are here and the people who are in charge of paid are over here. And what
needs to happen is everybody's got to like work together because I get, you
know, and and for Calie, right? So, I get her on these podcasts and then she
and um an assistant do the social content and she uses AI to kind of like
synthesize what she wants to say, but she goes back in and makes it sound it makes it human and that stuff goes up a
lot faster. And I think the mistake and she's not doing any paid push behind it.
She is a trusted voice on LinkedIn. But when you are like the PR's over here and
the social posts have nothing to do with what the PR is doing, you are wasting your money on both
100%. 100%. and and traditional like wanting to be
on the Today Show, God bless, in this day and age versus on Bill Simmons or
the I've had it ladies, you know, like where's the audience? The audience is
lovely on the Today Show, but they've gone from like you say the Tonight Show or or Jimmy Kimmel, it was like from 10
million to 1 million. and the audience wants the ability to control their
consumption. Podcasts, Substack, social media, YouTube, they're in control.
So, yeah, I I I couldn't agree more with all of that. One one thing I might add is stick with it, right? Um, you know, to
me, it's not that different from the concept of producing executive thought leadership. you and you know let's say
you talk the CEO into doing one piece that you poke that you post somewhere or
get it on the Forbes technology council or whatever but you if you do it once you you got to
stick with it right and I in my research Jeff
uh one of the things that uh what you say like three or four million podcasts
but there's really only about at least according to my research maybe half a million ion to be estimated to be
actively producing content. That's correct. Yeah. So, you've got you're going to commit to
it. You've got to keep it up, right? I'm going to recommend a newsletter to
you guys. It's called Sounds Profitable and a gentleman named Tom Webster who
was at Edison Research and I'm sure Jeeoff that's where some of your stats came from is Edison Research but Tom is
is the most generous knowledge sharing expert on the business of podcasting
that you will ever find. He does free webinars um on the industry. He always has a
sponsor like NPR or a research company or at one point the pot save America
guys crooked media but sounds profitable picks out a newsletter almost every day
and sometimes there's great stuff and useful stuff for me sometimes there isn't but um I feel like you know like
anything else in our business if you don't keep current then you like what
that's your job and And I and I agree with you, John, that if you start
something, whether it's a regular posting on LinkedIn and then you drop off, that's a problem. And they al
they're adjusting the algorithm every day. They've just messed with it again. And you wonder why why is this thing
from two weeks ago showing up. It's because they know it didn't get a lot of views.
That's interesting. Luckily, we've been we've been keeping it up at our modest level uh pretty
religiously every two weeks in the almost year since we started. And that's great. What you're saying is is I think fuel
for the importance of keeping that up. Jeff, take any takeaways for the
audience, Jeff? I I mean I'm I'm I'm definitely blinded with science right now. And who tells you they understand
this stuff is lying. You know, we can understand the messaging and the motivation and all that beneath this,
but all of these things are changing so rapidly. Um it it it boggles the mind
and you have to stay ahead of it. Um, so that's something I take out of this uh
um very very seriously and I think you know as a as a as a tool for the
communicator podcasts are becoming more and more and more important. So well and I'll leave you with this. the
the prom there's been a couple of articles New York Magazine's Vulture did it instead of the traditional press
junket it's much more the the the
untraditional the chicken date chicken dinner date thing the English thing
they're they want celebrities need to do those shows almost versus the Tonight
Show or the morning shows because they're reaching their audiences more directly and like YouTube shows,
podcasts, Substacks, they're doing they have to especially in
an age where what is what is the CEO of Netflix like his biggest cont the the
the biggest competitor of Netflix is sleep there is distraction
you know it's like if I'm like the commissioner of the NBA I would be worried about all this other stuff you
know assume they are. I would I would I would
assume that Adam Silver is worried about that kind of stuff. I think and I have to say the NBA has an
excellent social media game and an approach to getting the players to be their own brand ambassadors and all of
that. So, I agree with that. I I personally think they're the best professional sports league maybe for all marketing. Um
certainly the community stuff they do is very impressive. Um I don't know. I mean, that's perhaps a uh maybe a
different a different podcast. Jeff, that's right. I think so, too. Yeah. But anyway, Lisa, thank you so
much. It is. I'm so excited to see you again, John. Nice to see you, Jeff.
Hang out you and and um just catch up in general. Yes, we had some time to catch
up in the green room before this. Yeah. Yes. Jeeoff, you want any anytime?
Oh, yeah. Hey, we may have you back. Be careful what you wish for. Yeah, you better be careful to shield your faith.
Can you do our traditional I'll do the wrap-up. Okay, here's a little ad for us. For us, you know,
we're we're we're not the smartest looking guys, but we're pretty smart. We know how to we know how to maneuver
around these things. So, um if you have a need for anything communications related, public relations related,
marketing related, come and talk to us. If nothing else, you'll get a good conversation out of it and maybe we can
provide a little wisdom along the way. Um, also follow us. If you like this, hit like. Um, follow us on all the
different social channels. We're on every one of them. So, um, you'll hear again from us soon, but again, thank you
for hanging with us one year into this, a little bit more than one year into this. It's pretty amazing. And, uh, we
keep on growing and I think we're better than we used to be, but we can always get better. So, we love all of you.
I love you, John. I barely know you, Isa, but I love you, too.
Yes. Buy my book. Excellent. Thank you, Lisa. Oh, very welcome. Thank you.
Nailed it, you guys. See y'all later. [Music]

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