[Music] Hey, welcome to our 12th podcast. I'm

Jeff Bomb and my co-founder of our firm, Clients First Marketing and Communications, John Clintenning, is on

screen as well. Today's a special broadcast. Um, it's it's kind of retrospective with some really good

insights on where people are going in our careers and where the whole craft of

journalism is going. Um my friend, co-founder, partner, all that stuff,

John Quandenning, uh just posted an article to LinkedIn this morning,

looking back 40 years to his graduation from college. And his his question was,

if I had to do it all over again, if I had to go to college all over again, would I have made different choices? Um

am I happy with where I've ended up? Am I happy with what I've contributed and and with where I'm going? And I I read

it. I think it's really good. And that's what we're going to talk about today. Yes. Posted on LinkedIn and Facebook

this morning. Very, very proud of the piece. You know, there are certain milestones in life uh that when they hit

you, you find yourself thinking back to that day or that time in your life and and and all

that has happened since. And and one of those milestones in my life is upon me

now. And actually, it's upon you too, Jeff. 40 years ago this month. So, we

are recording this on May 1st. Uh, you'll see this you'll see this the

following week, but 40 years ago this month, both Jeff and I graduated from

our respective colleges. Do you remember your graduation day, Jeff? I do. I do.

Some of it? Yeah, most of it. Most of it. I think we had a uh a retired

admiral speak at my Nice. Everyone else got Joe Pno, but we got a

retired admiral. Hey, you can't really lose either way there. To Jeff's point, I I yes posted a

LinkedIn piece this morning all about this and it was basically done in the form of a letter to my 22year-old self

and and I hope you enjoy it if you get a chance to read it. My message, not to bury the lead, is to stick to your guns

and what you did in terms of choosing to major in not just journalism, but print

journalism. And yes, we're going to get into all that's happened to print journalism since then. My message is you

did the right thing despite all that would happen later to your profession of

again especially print journalism and and why why you did the right thing,

right? And and there's really just one main question. Um two main questions,

but I I guess the first one is really the main question, and I pose this in the teaser language on LinkedIn. Would

you choose the same major in college if you had a chance to do it all over

again? What a what a compelling question that is, right? And regardless of that

an of the answer to that, this is the second question. to what extent did you

end up leveraging what you learned as part of your studies right so it's one

thing to say I am glad you know I I would major in that again but regardless

of the answer to that to what degree have you ended up leveraging what you

studied and and I think this is a valid question whether you're 40 years out from college or even just five years out

from college as we know Gelman is our producer um she is five years out of the

University of Georgia. To which I say, yes, Jeff, join me. Go dogs. Go dogs,

baby. But but this is not a this is not a podcast about nostalgia. The meat of

what we're here to talk about is something, Jeff, uh that you and I have been actually talking a lot about of late, in part because of some client

work we're doing. The main issue for me is, you know, that that I think is a

fair question for someone to ask is, is journalism dead? Right? And if it's not

dead, is it at least mortally wounded? To the extent we can agree that

journalism isn't what it once was, this is another question I would pose. Is

that a bad thing? What are the sacrifices that

society is having to make as a result of there being fewer

traditional media sources available? Think about these questions. These are

really big questions. I'm going to take a combination of the first and second ones first. The answer is no. In my

view, I do not think journalism is dead. And those who suggest that it is, I

believe they're just, pardon the pun, dead wrong. Um and and frankly we should hope that they're wrong because if

journalism is dead we are in a lot of trouble as a society. Um a lot of people

think we're in a lot of trouble as a society anyway. Yeah. Regardless of journalism, right? But if you don't

think it could be worse, it would be worse without journalism. Having said that, yeah, I think it is fair to say

that in the year 2025, uh, the profession of journalism is

wounded, especially in comparison to the pedestal upon which journalism

essentially sat way back in the dark ages, Jeff, of 1985 when you and I

walked across that stage and did the tassel and entered the working world. And and what has led to this? What has

led to journalism not being what it used to be despite its ongoing critical

importance? And we'll get to some of those reasons to society. What What's happened to

journalism to make it get to the point where people are actually saying it's dead or it's at least mortally wounded?

Well, three things happen. Three humongous things happen. Have you ever heard of this guy

Al Gore, Jeff? Al Gore. Yes. Yeah. What's the guy who invented the

internet? He is. He is allegedly the guy who founded as well.

But that's okay. What's that? A former vice president, US senator as well. Yes.

Former And by the way, a former journalist. I believe he started his career as a journalist. Yeah. Yeah. So,

yeah. Al Gore uh supposedly everybody likes to make jokes about it. invented the internet. Well, what happened? First

of all, it changed the world essentially overnight and has changed the world, I

think largely for the better since then. People all of a sudden were able to get their news and information

instantaneously. Now, you didn't always have to wait for the next morning's paper to come. You could watch the

evening news. You could listen to the radio. But you know as I posed the question I posed in my piece was who

wants to wait for the next morning to see the hockey scores right if you could

just look at them on your computer. If you think about it what legacy media had on their

side pre-in was control essentially if you think about it control of news and

information. We generally generally speaking had to wait for it for when they were ready to deliver it whether it

was on a newspaper cycle or a TV cycle or a radio cycle. Right. Okay. Fine.

That changed things. Well, what happened next? You ever you ever heard of a guy Jeff named Steve Jobs?

Some guy with a company named after a fruit I believe. I don't know who if he

invented the smartphone. I don't know about that. But but I think it's generally agreed upon that he's the one

who popularized the smartphone more than anyone. And um and it very quickly began

to run our lives, right? And again, as I post in the LinkedIn piece, well, who

who wants to wait to get in front of your computer to see the hockey scores now? You can get them on your phone,

wherever you are, right? So, what's happening in the meantime to newspapers? They're losing control of the

information flow, right? And then the next thing ha that happened, the the the

third leg of the stool, if you will, was this thing called social media. Have you heard Have you heard of that, Jeff? It's

it's this new thingy. Yes. Social media. So, I'm not I've been active on it. Not

that I've Well, I'm not sure who started it, but I did look it up. And

2004 is the year when social media became the term that we use it for

today. Right? So what did social media do? Well, essentially it gave us all the

ability to express ourselves to the public, right? It gave us all of the

ability to essentially, if you will, be journalists. Now, that's a good and bad thing, right? It's a good thing that

everybody can share their views with the world. This serves the I think the great

purpose of democratizing news and information, right? Why should we always

have to wait for it to be filtered through somebody else? I think generally speaking, that's a good thing. Why is it

a bad thing? Well, a lot of those a lot of these opinions that are posted are either disguised as news or people take

it as news, right? And so a lot of times we see information on the internet, we

take it as gospel. Um much of this information we take as gospel isn't

really news. It's just commentary. There's a huge difference between news and commentary. Um now or is propaganda

as well. Propaganda. Absolutely. you know, if stuff gets posted on social, whether it's sensible content or

not, there's none of the analyzing or the sourcing or the proofing that goes into content making it into a newspaper,

right? But people either don't care or just don't have the time for that because they take it as gospel. And so I

tend to think that's bad. And then in the meantime, many of these opinions, more and more of them over time, are

being expressed on either the far right side of center or the far left side of

center. And what happens when that happens, and I think we talked about this a couple of podcasts back when you

did your LinkedIn piece, it moves people away from the center, right? Right? And

all of a sudden, because of algorithms and things like that, you're just getting fed the information that you

want to hear wherever you are on that political spectrum. And what happens

then? We get more and more separated as a society, as a centrist. I consider

that to be quite negative and largely unfortunate. So when you roll all of

that together, you get the following. fewer traditional media outlets, especially,

and you know, I'm trying to tie this to my major of print journalism. Think about this factoid. This blew me away

when I researched it. Just since 2005, 3,200 newspapers have shut down.

3,200. I believe this is just in the United States, which means there are fewer and fewer jobs for journalists all

the time. Um, who wants to major in something that is producing fewer and

fewer jobs, right? That would give me reason for pause if I was 20 and trying to figure out what to

do. By the way, the new definition of the apocalypse, and I'm going to apologize to PR people um later on the

podcast is there are now six PR people for every journalist. That's that's a

little disturbing if you think about it. And we are generally considered PR people. We do more than that, but that's

one of the main things we do. Loss of credibility. This is the most disturbing factoid of all. As of 2025, this is a

brand new survey. Public trust in mass media has sunken to an all-time low of

31%. Less than one in three of us trust the media. And that's and and that puts

journalism in the category of lawyers and politicians. Kind of like no jobs. Who wants to major in something that

means you're going to have to dodge tomatoes being thrown at you for the rest of your life? There's a lot of stuff going on here that would, I think,

legitimately prompt someone in college today trying to figure out what to major in that would prompt someone to

question whether journalism was really the right way to go. And even if they love writing, even if they love news,

even if they're very curious, which you have to be as a journalist, I get the hesitation. Now, I later in this

podcast, I'm going to turn it over to you in a minute, Jeff. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to

detail some reasons why I think it's still a positive to consider majoring in journalism. A andor all things

communication. If you go to a comm school, you don't have to major in journalism. There are uh related things

you can major in as well. We'll get to that later in the podcast. But question for you, Mr. Bomb.

You again, you're also experiencing your 40-year anniversary from your college

graduation. What would you say to your 22-year-old self? Would you major in

what you majored in again? What What do you think? Yeah, I would. I would. I I

thought about it a long time and I know I've talked to you about it, John. Um I would major in journalism again because

it gave me the tools I needed to, you know, work in this industry all these years and all these decades now. Um I

learned how to write well. I learned how to take in information well. I learned to be strategic in what I wrote. I

learned to do things quickly. All those things really contribute to what we do as communications professionals and PR

people. Um, you know, I'm think I'm thinking back, you know, what held me back the most. And it was all personal

stuff. You know, I had a fear. I had anxiety. Um, when you're presented to

people who were of higher standing, I I thought oo, you know, what should I do in meeting this person? And it was about

halfway through then everything clicked. It flipped over that, well, what do I have to fear? You know, I really don't

have anything to fear. They may disagree with me. They may agree with me. they may not take my call, but what is that

to me personally? And that's a good way to kind of depersonalize all this stuff. If you're if you're feeling all these

emotions based on how people react to you, you're not going to work out well and your career is not going to be very

long. Um, so, you know, once I got over that, I I I think I was kind of off to

the races and I was able to um, you know, punch my ticket in lots of different areas. I had pretty well at a

very diversified career. And I kind of learned that journalism is more than,

you know, a science. It's an art. Um, once you learn how to communicate with

people, advocate, everything that anyone in our field does takes that in. I mean, if

you're a a lobbyist, if you're a lawyer, if you're a salesman, if you're a PR

consultant, you know, all those things flow together. So, um um I'm happy with where he turned, the way I turned out,

where I went. And uh I was just talking to um someone relatively u recently um about

life. You know, if you look in a car, if you're riding in a car, uh that windshield is a lot bigger, a lot wider

than that rearview mirror. So, why are you looking in the rear view mirror all the time? all the stuff that's ahead of

you, all those possibilities, all those threats, all those benefits, they're all in front of you. And if you keep that

attitude, you're going to do well. And my final point would be, so what's happened to journalism? It's evolved.

It's evolved like everything else. Computers being invented. You know, we don't use typewriters anymore. We have

the internet out there. We've got high-speed information flow. Theaters are dying because you can sit home and

watch movies on Netflix. Bookstores are dying because all that

information you rely on is available right on your internet. Media is changing because of just what John said.

You know, you want those sports cores and everything else immediately. News is largely moved over

to social media. So, is that wrong? Is that different? It's it's almost like,

and this is going to sound really goofy, but if you look back to like the history of democracy and go back to ancient

Greece, that was that was direct democracy. Everybody got together in a room. That's right. Shouted what they

wanted. Was that effective? Well, you know, in changing the world, yes. Um, but we moved on from that to

representative democracy, which I think that's what we are right now. So what we need to do is make sure that we don't go

into that authoritarianism or another direction. And I'm confident we won't. And I think

a lot of that will be due to people like us and people like you. You got to care.

You got to care about where the world's going. You got to separate it from yourself and your urge to be wealthy and

everything else. You know what? What's my legacy going to be? What good did I do to my life? I love that, Jeff. That's

good stuff. By the way, that that ancient Greece thing you described it sounds like modernday UK government

debating just without just without the the wigs, right? That is that is true.

And those people go nuts. They go nuts. Um they really go nuts in those in those

things. Um very entertaining. So So yeah. So I agree with all of that. So

yeah, tradition let's talk about this for a minute. Let's talk about trust in traditional media, right? Versus trust

in social media, right? I mean, clearly, I mean, I don't want to make it sound

like I'm bashing social media. I mean, it is the place to be these days for so

many reasons, but let's look at this 31% thing. People, the general trust in I I

believe it's in mainstream media is 31%. I take that with a grain of salt. Um,

when it comes to traditional media because so I saw that the survey

and I started researching and other polls suggest that people trust information

that comes from traditional media sources more than they trust information that comes from social media sources.

And why is that? I believe it's because people inherently know that there is a process that goes on with traditional

media. There's a process of analysis and vetting of the information and proofing

and sourcing and all this stuff, right? Um that process doesn't occur

um it it occurs that process I was going to say that process doesn't occur with information that's posted on social.

That's that's that's true. If an individual is doing it, you can say whatever the hell you want to say, right? Now, if a company is posting

something on social, you would hope that there's still responsible behavior going

on before it's posted. But, but hey, I mean, before a story shows up on the Wall Street Journal, you all out there

would be amazed at how many hoops that that content has had to jump through before it gets onto the page. And and

yes, that page is more of a digital page now than a paper page. It doesn't really matter. It's still the Wall Street

Journal. So why are people hoodwinkedked by this a little bit? Why don't people care more about that? Why why would so

few people trust mainstream media if they if they know that? Right, John? I I

think you know what we're talking about there or what you're talking about is if you're told every day it's fake news,

it's from the deep state, it's whatever else, you start to believe it. And that's what folks try to do with

traditional media. No, believe us. And if you say something that's not true

enough times in people's minds, it becomes true. So, I think that's kind of

what's driven this. And you know, it's going to continue to drive it. Well, I I do think that has an effect. Yes, it has

an effect in the United it is having an effect in the United States. It's having an effect in other places like Venezuela

where journalists are being jailed. Um, you know, things like that. But, but I would also say that the slide in trust

of media predates 2016 when Trump came to office. It's been slowly sliding for

a long time. Oh, absolutely. Right. And you know, I think some of it is just, you know, we're just busier than ever.

We have more information sources bombarding us 247. I guess my point would be I would

go back what I said earlier. I think a lot of people take commentary as news. Commentary isn't news. Sean Hannity is

not a journalist. I'm sorry. He's a commentator. There's nothing wrong with

being a commentator. It just means you're not a journalist. Tell it like it is. He is a commentator. He's a

commentator. is not a journalist. Journalists are all about objective information, news. Now, that's not a

political statement. I say the same thing about his counterparts on CNN. Don Lemon or, you know, the guy that they

got rid of and who's the other guy, Cuomo, that they got rid of. Yeah. Yeah. They're not journalists either. They're

commentators. But people take this stuff as news and it's so polarizing that it

just it just poisons the well for journalism in general. It just does. But

I do think you're right when you have um you know the leader of the free world and other leaders of other countries

just bashing the media left and right. Yeah, it does. How can that not have an effect right on the um trust in socials

too? just from my perspective a lot of times and this is not this is not across the board by any means but a lot of

times at least for me when I see quote unquote news on social media right

you're right it is a thought in my mind that where are they getting this from you know because of that exact vetting

process but also too the benefit is a lot of times on socials I see that

people have done the work quote for me by looking all of these things up and

finding the connections between them and making it a succinct one minute video

rather than me having to read article after article after article to find the connections myself. So in a way I see

the positives but I absolutely agree that I lean on that uh vetting process

to actually find what is backing this commentary. Hey there's nothing wrong with that. I

mean, it's a positive that there are that there are platforms and sources out

there that do a lot of this research for us. You just hope that if news is being

presented, it's actual sourced real news. And if it's not, it's commentary.

But I I guess my point would be I'm not sure people know the difference anymore. Really, it's it's really troubling. So

So let's touch on my third question that I posed earlier. What bad comes from

having less real journalism, if you will, right? 3,200 papers shut down.

They say, "Let us count the ways," right? None of them are good. Fewer local media outlets means the public

receives less civic information. And data shows that that

negatively affects voter turnout, which by definition harms democracy. Okay,

that's that's one offshoot result of fewer

journalists. Okay, less media coverage, less traditional reported sourced real

media coverage, right? Also directly leads to an increase in bureaucratic

corruption. Why is that? Because one of the jobs of journalism is to keep power

in check. And it's just the way of the human race. You got fewer people

watching you. You know, they say, what do they say? Real character is what you're doing when no one's watching.

Right. Right. Yeah. Well, in too many cases, there's not enough people watching. So, shocker, more corruption.

Okay. Number three, I got two more. Fewer objective news sources give rise

and I mentioned this to biased media which deepens an already deep societal

divide which again as a centrist I find very disturbing. And then the the last thing

is we've touched on this lack of journalistic freedom gives easier rise to authoritarian regimes and that's just

that's not just a comment on the US. I mean, so it it's just, you know, and and

I think I used this term or referenced it in my piece, news deserts. What does

that mean? Wherever you live, there's just less news around you. So, you're just less in you're just not as

informed. It's just not it's just not good. If you if things like democracy,

accountability, and trust are things that you support. It's just not good. Well, I think the news like on the

economy right now is really stilted. You know, it depends on who you listen to. If you listen to traditional

journalists, they see one thing. If you listen listen to certain politicians, they see an opposite thing. So, there's

like an ulterior motive. Um, and one of the one of the things that's happened with the way journalism's evolved is you

could take a look at publications and um, video news, you know, on the on the

internet or on TV, and you can characterize those channels. Oh, Fox

Business, okay, that's going to be super conservative. Uh, CNN, it's going to be liberal. MSNBC, it's going to be even

more liberal. And maybe Bloomberg cuts it down the middle. Um, you're going to feel like that. You're going to look at

newspapers. You're going to see, oh, the New York Post, well, that's I don't know whether that's a Murdoch paper, but

that's super conservative. If you look at the New York Times, oh, it's super liberal, right? Look at the Wall Street

Journal. Well, you know, that's so respected, but it's also owned by Rupert Murdoch. So, how do you cut that out?

And you've got the Washington Post owned by Jeff Bezos. So, you can't really

separate out all those things. And um and I think we ought to try to do that.

And unfortunately, it comes down to guys like John, me and a lot of you out

there. How do you how do you separate that out? So, I think that's one of the things we need to focus on. Um so, and

and let's take a look at trends coming up. artificial intelligence, you know, largely I've seen it actually chat GPT

has evolved to the point where if it writes something for you, it cites where

it found the information at the very bottom which is a brand new feature and I think you know to the concern that

John had and there are lots of concerns over AI but I I think that's one step in

the right direction and then finally down the road more is quantum computing which is going to make everything

obsolete. So, you know, do you want to enter the world with skepticism and fear or maybe

a hope that all these things are going to turn into something better? And I'd like to I'd like to end with that. I I I

truly believe we're going to see the edge of the cliff and turn around. You

talk about anxiety and the the anxiety of being in your 20s, right? G, you and

I were talking at Gilman about this before we turned the red light on here and uh the anxiety of being in your 20s.

You know, it's a tough it can be a real tough time for people, right? You're out of school now. Okay, you've been a

student your whole life. Now you're in the quote real world. Now what do you do? Right? Regardless of what you

majored in, right? Oh, let let me go back to grad school, you know? And some some people

do that so they don't have to deal with reality, right? But um it can be a tough

time and I guess my advice would be believe in yourself. believe in yourself

and and and this this stuff that you bring up uh Jeff and you know AI and quantum and

all this stuff right the good news if you're a 20some today you understand

that stuff way more than we do right so embrace it embrace AI as your friend be

you can be if you're 26 years old or 28 or whatever you can be the person at the

agency or in the office to whom people turn to explain it. What does that do?

It increases your value to your employer. Right? So, embrace it. Believe

in yourself. Believe in yourself. That's that's all I can say. And part of the reason I say that is even when you're 40

years out, you still don't have all the answers. The 28-year-olds might think we

do, but it's a journey. It's a journey. So, just believe in yourself. Some closing comments. If you're a working

journalist out there, congratulations to you for having joined what many people,

it's somewhat of a dated term these days, having joined the fourth estate.

Um, you have chosen a profession that plays a central role in democracy. Uh,

think about that for a minute. Most people can't say that, a central role in democracy. At the same time, well, that

sounds like a pretty heady thing, right? But many of you, most of you probably don't reap these great financial rewards

that other people do. All those business majors, they're the ones making all the money, right? Um, sounds like teachers,

right? So critically important and you make a lot of sacrifices. So, you know, I would say keep doing what you're doing

if you're a journalist, whether it's popular or not. Keep exposing the bad guys. Keep writing the

positive stories. We need them more than ever now. um and everything in between. And at a

time when we trust your work less than ever

before, don't let that get to you because again, I call BS on some of

those on some of those poll numbers. Maybe that's what you mean by we're going to head up to the cliff and then

pull back. I don't know. Um so, you're not gonna just jump. Yeah, exactly. A

better alternative. We're gonna and do something smart. Yeah, exactly. If you

are a PR person, just kidding about the apocalypse, right? Fact that there's six

of you to every one working journalist is not the apocalypse. I was just trying to make Jeff laugh. Um PR is often

misunderstood, is it not, Jeff? Just as journalism is. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know,

and and most people, you know, there's there's a joke that is pretty common in

PR that you can't really explain to your mom what you do, right? If you're in

advertising, oh, look at that ad, right? I made that ad or I put or I made sure

that that ad was appeared in that magazine at at, you know, on page 47,

right? PR is really hard to explain what the heck you do. Celebrity publicity is

one thing. I think people get that. But if you're a corporate PR person, a, it's hard to explain what you

really do. Um, but B, it is really hard work. It's really hard work. You're

constantly caught in the middle. The sea level people around you, they

want X. the journalists to whom you're

pitching the corporate stuff, they want why. And no matter what you do, there's

a there's a tug there and you're caught in the middle and it's really hard to make both ends of that rope happy. It's

really hard. Yeah, you get paid more. You tend to get paid more than you do if you're in journalism. And um that's

fine. But you know I I suppose what I'd say to that is given the importance of

building brand to the value of an enterprise. Jeeoff and I talk to clients all the time about our favorite factoid.

19.5% of brand value or or enterprise value can be assigned to brand value.

Well, if you're a corporate PR person and you're responsible for an enterprise's reputation, hey, frankly,

you should be paid a decent wage, right, Jeff? Absolutely. And they are. They

are. They slash we are, but you're probably also underpaid as well. And then lastly, and I think most

importantly here, if you are a student trying to determine what to major in in

college, I strongly urge you to think about not necessarily print journalism

if you don't think it's for you, but at least think about communications. Now, here's another disturbing factoid, Jeff.

Enroll, and we know this from some of the client work we're doing. Enrollment at communication schools is down. um and

largely because of fewer journalism majors, but communication schools do more than educate uh journalists. Um but

think about it this way. If uh if you want to get into a college that's hard to get into, maybe apply to be a communications

major, right? They want you, right? You know the old trick, I I can't get into

the engineering school at&m, so I'm going to apply as a sociology major and

I'll just transfer into the engineering school once I get to campus. Now, easier said than done, but there are people who

try to play that game. Communication schools want you and need you. They want bodies. Um, now let's take the Elon

University communication school for which I serve uh on the national advisory board. So, I know the school

intimately and Gellman's sister is a proud graduate of Elon. Think about

these majors that you could choose if you're within the Elon University School of Communications.

Journalism, strategic communications, which they call Stratcom. That's what Gellman's sister majored in. Cinema and

television arts, communication design. I have to admit, I'm not sure what that is.

um sport management, media analytics, which is

huge, and the newest the newest major, which they've just launched, digital

content management, um which to me is a very powerful thing. So, I guess I close with this. How about

you? How about you? Whether you're 28 like Gilman or 38 or 48 or 58 or you

graduated from college 40 years ago this month like Jeff and I, would you choose the same major again regardless of the

answer to that again? To what extent did you end up leveraging all that you learned as part

of that major? These are just these are really interesting questions. our arrival at this moment in time, Jeff,

has really spurred a lot of introspection in my part about that. And

uh yeah, as I said to my 22-year-old self in the LinkedIn piece, absolutely, I would choose it again. 100%. You learn

so many things as a journalism major that you can apply to just about anything. You learn how to build

relationships, how to interview people, how to call BS on people. Uh you learn all about

deadlines. You you Think about this. You'll learn how the world works, right? Um, if you're going

to write about a schoolboard decision or a city council decision or a murder or

whatever, you have to know what you're talking about, right? You have to know

how to filter what you're hearing from all the sources that you're talking. I mean, there's just so much that goes

into this that you can apply to just about anything you do. But anyway, um,

I'll I'll turn it over to you, Jeff. It's just such a great question. Would you do it again? My answer is yes. Okay.

Yeah, my answer is yes as well. Um, you know, it's been a it's been an interesting career. Lots of twists and

turns, but you know, have I been happy during uh this career? And I'd say, you

know, 90 90% of the time I have been, which is a pretty good percentage. So, anyway, with that, let's uh let's wrap

it up. Um, thanks again for joining us. The number of people following this broadcast keeps on increasing, but we'll

take more. We will definitely take more. So, um, if you want to know more about us, go to our website at

clientsfirstmc.com or, um, of course you can check us out on all the social networks or at least, you know, the the

ones that get the most exposure. I mean, we're we're active. We're every place. So, again, thank you. Thank you. Thank

you for joining us. Thank you for viewing our opinions with some credibility. I hope we can earn it.

Anyway, until next time. Thanks everybody.

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