[Music] well good morning everyone and welcome

to the latest edition of our on the offense podcast uh I am going to hold up

a cup of coffee here uh which I desperately need not because uh yeah

there's Jeff not because I desperately need coffee although I do but because

wind chill wise outside here in Dallas it is all of one degree today it is 4 14

and one degree with windshield and so uh not only do I need coffee I need hot

coffee so uh we're very happy to be here with you as you can see we have a third

party with us today and we will introduce her in a moment we are really really excited about this edition of uh

on the offense so as you know if you are a veteran listener uh viewer of ours we

always have some sort of news hook as to why we focus on a certain topic um on a

certain day and that news hook this time is the fact that it is now earnings

season uh it is mid-February I've already been on uh an earnings call this

morning um and uh everyone is reporting not only the fourth quarter but their full year earnings right now so all

things earnings are in the air uh and that's the reason we're going to focus on that topic today uh my part

part in crime Mr bomb who also holds up a hot cup of coffee um has many he has

multiple superpowers one of them is financial Communications having worked very

closely with Jeff in a publicly traded company he is by far the best financial

Communications person I have ever seen before or since and so Jeff's going to

take the lead in interviewing Our Guest um and as for our guest it is my

absolute privilege smooch to introduce smooch repovich Rosenberg um smooch is

one of the nation's leading and probably maybe even the world's leading

recruiters both for corporate Communications and for investor relations so she sees things from all

sides of the equation here she is a published author I have a signed book

from her um in my signed author book collection thank you for that smooch um

and and by the way you you came to my book signing in La um and so we have

signed we have signed books for one another which is kind of cool um Simo is

very likely um to you all out there a familiar face she's done quite a bit of

speaking engagements lots of video work she is one of the leading of voices and

faces in the business of recruiting high level talent for both corporate coms and

investor relations she's the perfect person for us to have as our guest today

and honestly I mean SM smooch is the person who brought Jeff and I together when she recruited us and several others

to EDS 25 years ago this year which is just amazing um and uh yeah and we have

continued to lean on her since as a Mentor certainly as a friend as well and so smooch we're so happy you're here

thank you for joining us and um maybe before I turn it over to Jeff smooch if

is there anything you'd like to say as part of an intro well thank you both John and Jeff

for asking me to participate in this as you mentioned we've known each other 25

years and it's been amazing for me to see the two of you just get catapulted

your careers and do so many interesting uh and diverse things with management teams so it's a it's a

pleasure to be in the conversation with you thank you so happy this so happy

this worked out Jeff I will turn it over to you to push forward okay okay and smooch again thank

you for joining us yeah smooch is is pretty much a legend in her field and uh

we really appreciate not only her mentorship but her friendship um okay so the way I think I'm going to

do this is I it'll be kind of a question and answer little modified maybe a

little humor thrown in John has some props or whatever he may he may throw out there that's his

always brought a prop too you just don't know anyway okay well why don't I start off

with a real easy one is what made you get into the profession and you know

what's your perspective on it what what makes you excited to to come to work every morning and to

recruit Schmucks like us well I wouldn't put you too in that category but I actually fell into

recruiting when I was working for a global ir and PR agency in my 20s I

worked for a CEO who appreciated the the business Acumen and intellect I brought

into frankly the marketing communication space that I was working in and when he

was he was president of the US operations and when he was promoted to CEO he asked me if I would start an

executive search function for that firm because in a professional service firm

Talent is your biggest business challenge put put profits and and all of that aside it's always in the talent and

so when he asked me to do that I trusted his judgment that I was the right person to be in this field and I just found

that I loved it I have been in search now now about 35 years and I feel as

though I've gotten 250 mbas because I've learned about so many companies their

business their structure and I and I love people and I enjoy helping

professionals like yourselves um be introduced to the right career opportunity not just another job

and so I'm a little bit of um the uh odd man in the in the profession and that I

really have always believed my loyalty has to be equal to the corporate clients

and getting their needs met and also to the talent and helping them to navigate their careers and that's really the

intersection of my passion that's that's fantastic I think I I don't think I knew that how you got

into that that's a great story didn't realize that I was very fortunate John working for a CEO who just saw in me um

qualities that don't always manifest themselves in the job you have today if you will um and he he was the best CEO

I've ever worked for it's fantastic well he had he had good judgment clearly

thank you had a good person had a good person well I guess moving from that um

smooch like John had said you recruited both of us to EDS as well as a bunch of other members of our team

um I I was always a Communications person with a pretty good Financial

Acumen how important do you think that is for a PR person to have a full

understanding of a corporate uh corporate financial statements the ability to communicate earnings

Acquisitions all the above you know how how important is is it to have a really

well-rounded PR person with a good business knowledge I Jee I think it's critical

and I've felt that way for 30 years but 30 years ago the communications

profession wasn't ready to do that and and I think companies and management teams hadn't evolved enough about the

topic of communications Financial Communications the investment community

and the importance of that and today um I think it's critical that frankly if um

I was going to college today if I was studying Communications I would do a minor in business and probably Finance I

think it's really important and there's so many resources in the marketplace that communicators can turn to I mean if

Finance is not that tough it feels tough but it really isn't I mean I as as John

knows I studied broadcast journalism and uh there's not one shred of Finance in that but a little

intellectual curi curiosity and knowing that your your colleagues and your

management team count on you to make smart judgment calls you have to learn business abut non-negotiable today

yeah I think I I kind of learned it all by osmosis really I I was a journalism major um and since coming into the

corporate world you know I was told okay you need to prepare the earnings releases and just through that process

and each one of those takes weeks and months you know to prepare because that's the ultimate announcement of the

quarter not only how you're doing financially but what's driving your growth or you bet the opposite of that

so um no I I understand that fully um just a little bit on maybe just add to

that and and I'll say this maybe just easier for me to say this about Jeff SM you'll love this if you haven't heard

this before but when Jeff was running earnings at EDS it's one thing to write the release

and even maybe the remarks uh for the for the call the

Q&A how how many questions did weren't there over 200 questions on John you

really underestimated was over 300 over 300 300 I mean that's I mean it I saw this

guy first guy in the building last guy to leave for weeks on end going into earnings it is Hardcore stuff I mean

you're you're a CFO expressing CF essentially expressing CFO things

through Communications John you're absolutely right and I think um the really Savvy

management teams do not under estimate that um it is hard work and you know you

just I think investor relations slf Financial Communications or a chief

Communications officer those roles you're either Allin or you're not and I'm not a black and white person but I

do think that they every word you choose and every comment that you make or you

coach your management team member to make it counts you can't take it back especially today with you know the the

internet and all of that so you really have to be sharp and precise yeah no doubt yeah I've

certainly learned by doing on that um so you were talking about 30 years ago

which is just it seems like yesterday honestly but when I was at lcen I was director of financial media relations so

if you look at that in the scope of being 30 years ago that was pretty Progressive I thought bet is that a

normal role you see out there smooch is that something that's coming into popularity or was it a

rarity well back then Jeff I think it was a rarity today you know the IR

profession and Communications professions have evolved tremendously and I think that part of the answer to

your question is it depends upon the structure at the company it depends upon

people's backgrounds it depends upon the CEO and cfo's wishes and comfort zones about

where those responsibilities reside I have always been a believer that a head of communications and a head of ir need

to be in lock step with each other and communicate because if you're head of ir

or head of financial Communications you may be dealing with the media but you have to have you you both know this

continuity of the brand and the messaging across everything external and

internal so I think companies today have become more Savvy about that the literal struct I think often times depends upon

who's in those functions and those roles and and what management team sees as most

effective I I completely agree that's really insightful um yeah I know if the

and I hate to always point back to EDS but I was there the longest um and by the end of my time there I was in lock

step with our IR person we were best friends um so anything we did we made

sure we coordinated with each other and just if I look back over the course of my career the things I've done um you

know it doesn't matter what industry you're in you can adapt to that pretty quickly but it's the art persuasion and

the Art of um uh I I like to call it sales enablement even when I wasn't in a

a corporate function I was lobbying on Capitol Hill it was always about selling your idea and as a company you really

just have one set of ideas and everybody has to agree on that so um I I think

that's a really really great Point um and Jeff Jee let me add something to

that that I think a lot of people management team executive CFO CEO and

others Miss and I think it's not necessarily valued as much by practitioners like yourself the two of

you but the greater professions and that is I think the right Talent the top 20%

of talent in IR in Communications have the DNA and the

innate ability to understand that number one they have to have a neutral voice and number two they have to be able to

work across an entire management team whether it's head of HR CFO president of

a division it doesn't matter they need to be educator advisor I I there's so

many hats that these people wear and so I think that's an important piece too um

and those individuals who can do do that and do it naturally they end up evolving

their careers to Greater Heights than those who are solely about well I'm head of communication so I only deal at the

corporate level yeah yeah in fact I had a client years ago who said to me that I

was talking to the CEO conducting one of my due diligence meetings and I said what's the most important quality about

your current head of ir and Communications that you want to see in his successor and it had nothing nothing

to do with techacal competencies this CEO said to me the

incumbent he is gracious to everyone he doesn't pass judgment there are people

AC the Enterprise who seek out his advice Council on topics that have

nothing to do with what we pay him to do and the CEO said that's when I knew I

had the right DNA in that executive and that's hard to do and let's face so we all bring biases and

prejudices to everything we do but that neutral headset of I'm here to serve and

I'm going to always use my best judgment to give you the best answer not the answer you want to hear those are

influencer traits What sense that that's that's a

great Insight I actually just wrote down a question which you kind of sort of just answered what's the number one

thing that you look for in a chief Communications office officer Andor head of H of ir sounds like it's business

Acumen maturity able to be an advisor right it it is John and Jeff you know I

I have always focused for the last three decades on a couple of thoughts One technical competencies are what you get

what gets a candidate to our doorstep I focus almost exclusively on

intangible leadership attributes because at the end of the day I say to the management teams that I work with you're

not going to make this decision on hiring a head of communications or IR based on technical competencies because

they wouldn't get have gotten to these levels if they didn't have those number one and number two if they're missing a

piece you can supplement that's the easy part the intangible leadership attributes they either align with your

values of you a CEO you as head of ir the board chair the head of hrr Chief

legal counsel or they don't you can't negotiate those and so I do think that

that that package of intangible leadership attributes is critical and I don't think Talent focuses enough on

developing those skills along their career paths oh that's interesting so

how do you I mean well I mean how do you do that then maybe they don't I you're

probably right because we're all so busy just being so heads down trying to get things done every day right how do you

develop those types of attributes along the way you know I John it's a great

question and you can a person can take a lot of courses and I think that people should you know once a year every other

year take a course on kind of you know human capital and intangible leadership attributes but I'll tell you the easiest

and fastest way is learning through observation we all know

intuitively let's put narcissist to the side because that's a unique category of human behavior and headset yeah yeah we

we all know intuitively when we observe others what is good behavior and what's

bad behavior what's smart behavior and what's not and so especially in the younger years of your career or even as

you get to your you know in your third and fourth decade of your career

learning through observation of how others negotiate how they navigate politics how they how they dress how

they articulate themselves it's it's right there to be absorbed if you're willing to absorb it my for example my

parents they didn't um uh go to college they weren't in corporate jobs and you

know my dad was all about figure out the success path and you know good luck I'll

pay for college but you're on your own and the only thing I had was to observe

uh others and be a really active good listener and ask a lot of questions

I think that's so that's how you do that boy that's that's great insight and and by the way Jeff I have some bad

news are you ready I I I don't know I don't know the good news for the

world but the bad news for you is that smooch yes is a fellow

Trojan I don't hold that against her and she's even got on Trojan color there you go there you go he is a

proud graduate of the University of Southern California and you can see the quality of people coming out of that

school and of course I say bad news for Jeff

White very nice very nice yes I like lions what one one of my client favorite

clients many years ago was the head of corporate Affairs at McKesson and he was

a big ticket nit the lion and I to him as a client so there you go

I only say bad news for Jeff smooch because he gets an earful about SC a little too often for me well I going to

the West Coast with John he he drags me on in the USC campus oh I had this there

this that yeah in fact right after we had lunch downtown LA in August uh we

went directly to campus and I gave him a little little mini tour yeah well that campus is not like when you and I were

there it is so different oh it's unbelievable the place is is unbelievable it looks so

good um okay Jeff back to you back to me back to me um let's talk a little bit

about the interchangeability of the jobs um okay would you see it harder for an

IR people IR person to become a communicator or or vice versa that's a

great yeah it is a it is a great question and both of you kind of coming up through

the ranks of the communication side probably won't like my answer but here's the honest truth when I look at the

larger uh Communications profession because of oftentimes the lack of

business Acumen it's easier to teach a head of investor relations who today has

a finance background 95% of their background is finance and they will move on to CFO roles at some point it's

easier to teach them how to do Communications then it is to take a Communications leader and teach them how

to interact with the investment community and that's not for lack of intellectual prowess but in if I have to

distill down for a client what is the real root of communications it's about

great judgment and a head of ir has to have great judgment because you're dealing

with a company's books and numbers head of communications isn't necessarily

going to have the financial Acumen to go head-to-head with an investment Community analyst on financial models uh

our wrestling about competitor companies and their finances and so that's where the difference lies um I don't think

they're at least today interchangeable someday I hope they are I've wished that for 30 years but there's not as many

Communications people who fancy numbers as much as IR people as Finance people

can make good judgment calls does that make sense perfect sense I think it's just

reality yeah I think it is I'll I'll kind of equate it back to

an example we had where where do you think EDS course we had a huge earnings

miss one year huge and it was hard to explain and I think a lot of people in

the analyst Community um were thinking oh this company's teetering on

bankruptcy when when we weren't um and uh yeah we didn't have a whole lot of

cash on hand but um we certainly were a healthy company we had like $60 billion

do of business under contract that was pretty much guaranteed to us if we if we

stayed the course and I think that sometimes and this is no indictment of

the person who was leading IR at the time I think sometimes people miss that and the

nuances and you know that's the one thing I always tried to to point out to folks well do you think a company with

over $60 billion do in contracts that were already signed is in trouble and uh

that actually wasn't a terrible argument to make and I think a lot of journalists fell back on that think oh well that

that pretty much makes sense um and uh and I don't think that our finance and

our people people really opened up to that you know that oh that's just sales stuff um but it really was helpful in

terms of explaining that to our beat reporters um so I I would je let me let

me interrupt you for a second because I think you were ahead of your time in terms of the Judgment piece and ahead of

your time in terms of understanding having the financial Acumen to be able to see that if I recall correctly at the

time that I placed you and John there the IR function was rather dated it wasn't Progressive it was it was just

kind of locked in a well here's the facts of the numbers it wasn't about what's the messaging that you wrap

around that so that the external World understands it and it makes sense and so

I I think that's an important piece for for people to understand again it goes back to judgment having self-confidence

to be able to say to a room of people I'm not sure that's road we should go down so let's look through different

lenss which is a lot of what I think you brought to that conversation um I I hope that's

something I brought to the conversation I know after that horrific day um we all

sat down at a table and you know our good friend Tom Matia and John and I and

a couple other leaders and we formed this thing we called the 1725 club which

was the stock price we closed at that on that cataclysmic day and that yeah it was terrible

probably it was the day after because you know we announced after the close of the market um so what was the stock

before how high was it before the drop well it was at 40 something I think

we're at 43 or 44 the day before the day before day before yeah yeah go back go

back six months we were at 68 go back seven or eight months we were at

72 so that was a huge huge fall and my way of dealing it at least in my feeble

mind was hey this company does some things really well let's take the emphasis off of Financial and celebrate

the business we're doing and the Innovations we have and and really cut off that conversation and you know I

think it helped I think it helped I think when the company eventually was sold to

HP we got a lot more for that company than maybe it was truly worth and I

think a lot of that came from the publicity that we drove and our ability

to I'm not going to say turn chicken whatever in the chicken salad but that's

that's what we did so hopefully yeah we did bring value from that perspective but Jeff knowing there's another example

of knowing when to advise management to Pivot the conversation you know they

don't they don't teach you that in business school they really oftentimes don't teach you that in in communication

school and those are the again learning through observation those are the moments where you have to be able to

feel comfortable taking a bit of risk and saying well wait a minute why are we doing this when that makes more sense

because you're right EDS was a great company but the you know uh the Optics

sometimes color and hide um what's really the business is about so I think

that's you know another intangible leadership attribute is how do you take this and and pivoted not spin it because

that's a negative word but pivot it where it makes good business sense yeah

yeah that was the that's that's a perfect example of the old grouo marks line right I don't want to be a member

of a club that would have me as a member right so club club 1725 was uh Club 1725

was pretty intense people weren't down the doors to become a member of that club but I remember that actual meeting

um yeah so yeah nobody does John nobody wants to be a part of that kind of Club

but at the end of the day the people in that club hopefully have the intellectual and emotional strength to

drive out of that club point right you know and that's another intangible

leadership attribute you can't you know people who are really great at what they do they don't run when the time gets

tough and there's a lot of people who do that that's that's a that's a really good point um yeah and then you you know

if you do you know just think of the effect it has on things like Employee Engagement morale and etc etc right so

yeah it Cascades across the organization it it really does yeah no

question i' I've got a I've got I've got one so you've you've talked about what's

the the number one thing that you look for in a CCO Andor ahead of ir are there

an what's the candidate pool like out there are are there enough people out

there who've got the chops to do these jobs wow that's always the multi-million

doll question John I don't I personally don't feel that there are I mean I deal

I deal typically with the top 20% of both professions now in in the

percentage below or is their great talent yes I think I think we're people

as individuals navigate their careers I think where they really get off track is

somehow over the decades people are still believing that they are holding the hope that they're going to be the

number one and have that top job and I remember vividly at an IR conference uh

doing a presentation in front of about 200 people people and someone asked the

the question kind of similar a little bit different than yours but from the candidate perspective of you know I want

to be the number one and blah blah blah blah blah and I said okay this is simple math and you all are Finance people so

let's let's go through this calculation if there are 200 of you in this

room and only 20% of you get to the top the question I would be asking is the

other 180 of you is what do I do with that so if you're happy with your job

you like your boss you're doing meaningful work you like the company you work for your paycheck clears every week

and you get to have time on the weekend with your friends and family what's wrong with being number

two nothing and that that that's right Jeff and that goes back to kind of a an

Affliction I think we have in the United States of get on the hamster wheel and just keep pedaling as hard and fast as

possible and and we believe that if we don't get to that top level we're not good enough and I don't believe that

because some people are meant to be the best number twos ever they're never going to be number one their odds are

slim and that's okay and that's okay so find you know if I was to advise

candidates I would say find your station in life and it's okay if you're number two or number three or if you work for a

small cap not a large cap it's all okay

that's kind of a sideways way of answering your question John but I I mean there's good talent it's just the

talent's not always visible because they can't be in the number one spot yeah

what a great answer I mean and and by the way if you're the number two or number three it doesn't mean you don't have a big job necessarily right right

and and you're right I mean the number one jobs for chief Communications

officers Andor heads of ir there's a there is a price there is a price to be

paid the the H it's a finite number there's more jobs below the top spot than there are the

top spot and you bring up another good point John about you know there's a price to be paid invariably when I am

doing presentations and they're all interactive I don't do the speaking talking head thing anymore someone will

raise their hand and say the following I've been at my job for nine months and it's not what I

thought it was going to be and my immediate retort to them is well okay

whose mistake is that because you sound like you're blaming your CFO or your CEO and one of the Dynamics that happens

with talent and it also sometimes can happen with the hiring executive is everybody falls in love and they're

enamored with each other nobody stops to ask the hard questions because out of the fear that they're not going to be

loved anymore they won't get the job or whatever and then nine months into it they're in a job that they say well wait

a third of this is not what I thought it would be that's as much on the candidates shoulders in responsibility

as it is the hiring executive I don't when I'm involved I don't I do not let

that Dynamic happen I make the executives interview their top two candidates two or three times because

with every conversation you learn different things you get more comfortable asking the hard questions

and I think that's something that I would encourage management teams as well as candidates to do more often because

why would you want to take a job that ultimately you're not going to be happy it and and I say that with also the

adage that even in the top job there's 10% of what your job responsibilities

are that you're never gonna like and get over it get over it yeah I mean it's just

it's the way life Works nothing perfect yeah that's right

yeah um boy this is good this is gold by the way

I mean I I'm really excited I'm GNA be really excited to see this when it when it goes live this is great advice good

thank I agree yeah I agree with that I don't have too much more for you Smooch

I I mean you've been such a pleasure to deal with and your insights are golden I tell you um thank you and uh and

sometimes you got to break the mold is something I've found as well know if you live in the way well that's the way it's

always been done you're ultimately going to fail and that's right and I've I've actually taken a few courses you talked

about uh courses in leadership and one of the courses I took was

differentiating a leader from a manager and you know those managers they can

manage that assembly line really well they can make those products flow off on

time zero defects anything you need but leaders are different they INSP ire

people do what I do not just what I say um and they inspire people to you know

rise to new heights to break the mold and um and I think a lot of the things you just said point exactly to that so I

I thank you for that Council sure well let let me just make one kind of closing

comment that I think is really important for people in in both professions to

understand I mean you're right John you started this talking about we're in earning season and not just reporting Q4

but year- end earnings and there's a lot of headwinds as we all know we all read

the media a lot of headwinds right now is not going to be an easy year and I would encourage people the more you kind

of lean into the headwinds in terms of being a true partner to your management

team on topics they're going to want to hear as well as topics they won't want

to hear and being that really strategic advisor the better off you your

management team and your companies will be remember something you know the best when I think about my clients over 35

years the the best clients always say to me I do not want you to bring me people

who are going to say yes to everything I want a truth partner and I think this

year is going to be and maybe the next couple of years a true test on the leadership at of people in both

professions about being a truth partner to their management teams and I would encourage people to take the

risk um because that's going to demonstrate to management and to your board that you're more well prepared to

deal with headwinds and ultimately at the end of the day that's what they want

that's what they're hiring for I just wrote that down truth partner

what a great term right it it encapsulates so many things right um I

always I always say to my clients you know it's easy to sign a contract with me but you got to understand what you're

getting into and if you don't want a truth partner and someone who's going to say to you you know what Mr or Miss CFO

you're not thinking about this in as broad a manner as you should or whatever the case might be I'm not the right

recruiter because I'm not going to be a yes person and I'm not going to check it off the Box uh off the list and I'm not

going to just throw you a bunch of average cand candidates for you to believe that I'm doing what you're paying me to do that's not the way it

works and that has really I think over the years helped build a reputation for

me that when someone asks me a question they know I'm going to give them the

right answer and I say that to audiences you may not like my answer but you will always get the right answer and I think

that's important in these two professions the people remembers to have the courage to do that

terrific Council any of you wonder why uh we wanted to have smooch on on this

podcast uh that that last answer maybe encapsulated as much as anything smooch

thank you thank you for taking the time I don't want to miss my prop opportunity

so smooch knows what this is but so so um uh Jeff and I we Jeff from the East

Coast me from the West Coast we go off to Texas in the summer by the way I don't know how you talked us into doing

that and at that point in the year 2000 it ended up being the second hottest

summer on record for the State of Texas little did we know that before we got there and a few months later smooch

checked in with me little postmortem right how are things going and I said oh it's going great but I really missed the

beach you knew I you knew this was going to be proped so I don't remember if you

delivered it to me in person or if I got it in the mail but all of a sudden one day

I had with me courtesy of smooch a plastic water bottle filled with Pacific

ocean water and sand from Santa Monica beach and I have kept it with me for 25

years it has moved with me many times and this is a reminder of where I'm from

um which you never lose even if you relo somewhere else right that's right and uh

but it's also a reminder of you Smooch so thank you for taking a chance on me

back then because otherwise frankly we wouldn't be sitting here right now I never would have met Jeff and um thank

you for that and thank you for taking the time today Jeff any any closing comments no no again gonna jump in here

for a second because I have seen that water bottle in every single office of

yours since I was a sentient being hi everybody is Caroline jumping in from

the from post production um that I had no idea that you were the one who gave

him that water bottle oh my God courtesy of my of my fellow angelin who is not

who who is not today I trust sitting in one degree with windchill what's what's

the temperature in LA today probably going to be around 6870 and sunny oh

gosh you might want to get a heavy coat out that's Terri terrible well we're going to be in the

70s next week you here that's right John view the

glasses half full for heaven's sakes I mean really and Caroline I knew what I

was getting into when I recruited uh John to from Orange County to Plano

Texas so the least I could do was bring him a little uh momento of what he'd

left behind so he would feel like he's already always got the beach with him it is a prized position and will

always remain so Jeff can you do a quick commercial for our social channels yeah

absolutely so um remember you're listening to clients first marketing and Communications

LLC um visit our website if you wish I think it's a a nice little encapsulation

of what we've done over our careers and how we can help you and then finally tune in to our social channels which are

across all the main social networking platforms forms with that visit us again I'm sure we'll be

doing more podcasts we're we're averaging about two a month and I think we plan to continue to do that John any

part words of wisdom uh now just stay warm everyone smooch thank you so much

again it has been an absolute privilege and you're very welcome I've enjoyed it

it's always fun for me to see the two of you and you ask great questions so it's easy all good bye everybody see you

later bye Caroline

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